§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they will take as a result of the Whiteley Report on Metrication in 1980.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the survey referred to has not been published, but it is a consultants' analysis of the progress of metrication in the engineering sector of industry. Its conclusions are in line with what my noble friend Lord Trenchard said in the metrication debate on 31st January: that the transition was half completed. The Government's policy remains to permit manufacturers to change over to metric working if and when they judge the time is right.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, has my noble friend noted that the survey shows that the extra cost annually to an average engineering company of dual 642 working—that is, continuing with both metric and imperial—is nearly £50,000; whereas the cost to the average company of completing the change once and for all is only £64,000? Therefore, the cost of completing the change can be recouped in less than one and a half years. Is this not the first time that any survey, by any organisation, has quantified these costs and do we not, therefore, owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Whiteley for undertaking this work?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am highly suspicious of costs said to accrue to so-called "average" companies. I really do not know what an average company is. But, the fact of the matter is that the costs of metrication can be very substantial—for example, if it is necessary to retire a piece of machinery earlier than one would otherwise have done so, and to replace it with a new machine at very considerable expense. We think that it is right to leave it to individual companies to decide when it is in their best interests to change over to metric units.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that when we changed the monetary system about 10 years ago, working-class people felt that they were robbed right, left and centre by the prices that ensued from that change? Is he further aware that many people are terrified by the metrication system that has been talked about today?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think that people have unjustified fears of the metric system. We definitely think that it is a good thing for firms to move to the metric system of units, but we do not want to dragoon them into doing so.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is it true that the CBI has requested a meeting with a Minister at the Department of Industry on this matter? If so, is it intended to accord the CBI an opportunity to discusss this matter with him?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am not aware that the CBI has asked for such a meeting, but if it has I am sure that it will be given most sympathetic consideration.
§ Lord ALEXANDER of POTTER-HILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the impact that the failure of the Government to implement their first intended promise has had on the education service? We made a definite switch to metrication in primary schools preparing children to live in what was to be a metric world, and the effect of the retreat is that the children who are now coming into industry and commerce have been prepared for a metric system but are having to operate a dual system with very great difficulty.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord is mistaken; there has been no retreat. Firms are still ready and able, and certainly encouraged, to proceed with metrication at the speed which suits them best. As for what happens in schools, although I understand that the metric system is the one primarily taught in schools, children are certainly also given an exposure to the basic imperial units which still exist.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, with regard to costs, has the noble Lord noted that in the United States, where General Motors has been among the first to go ahead with metrication, it has discovered that the costs of doing so were approximately one-tenth of its original estimate?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the costs which a firm incurs when it goes metric depend on the timing of those changes; for example, as I said earlier, on the desirability of replacing a machine when it comes to the end of its useful life. No doubt the Americans were able to time their change-over accordingly.
§ Baroness WHITEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when some respondents to this survey were asked what, in their view, was the main cause of delay to industrial metrication, they put high on the list Government vacillation? Is the noble Lord aware that this applies to all Governments of every complexion, at least for the last decade? But is he also aware that only 3 per cent. of those who responded gave as their opinion that metrication is not necessary? The corollary of that is that 97 per cent. believe it to be necessary. As someone who has worked on this matter for a very long time, will he take it from me that the cost to industry of 644 Government vacillation has been far higher than any costs that industry could have otherwise borne for itself?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Baroness appears to misunderstand the basis upon which this Government was elected to office. We have stopped the practice of dragooning people into doing these things because we allow them to decide for themselves when it is best to do something. As for the various assertions which guided Mr. Whiteley in producing his report, one of the persons of whom he inquired, and on whom he relied, replied, "For Heaven's sake get on with it; I am getting old".
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, does my noble friend not agree that as it is now 15 years since we launched this programme, with the support of all parties, and that in another nine years we have to complete it? If we are to abide by the regulations of the EEC, and in view of the fact that 143 countries in the world have decided to go over to the metric system and that we are more dependent than any of them on our exports, should we not get on with the job, and do we not need the encouragement of the Government and their Ministers to do so?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord seems to think that we have not decided to go metric. As I have repeatedly said, that is not the case; we agree with the benefits of going metric, but we are not prepared to order firms to do so.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that for a century British firms have known what measurements to use to sell goods abroad, without being told right, left and centre? They have enough sense to adjust their machinery to the orders that are given to them.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right, and that is just what I have been saying.