HL Deb 16 April 1980 vol 408 cc278-81

2.55 p.m.

Baroness DAVID

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what they anticipate the effects of local authority reductions in the provision of discretionary awards will be on:—

  1. (1) opportunities for young people;
  2. (2) course provision, especially in subject areas which are essential but where demand is limited; and
  3. (3) providing colleges.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, the Government's expenditure plans published on 26th March (Cmnd. 7841) did not assume any reduction in the level of expenditure on discretionary awards over the period to 1983–84. They provided furthermore for a growth in the provision for home students in non-advanced further education. Our estimate is that this should permit a 10 per cent. increase in the number of students enrolled on non-advanced courses. How individual local authorities respond to the Government's plans is for them to decide. But I do not anticipate significant reductions in any of the areas referred to by the noble Baroness.

Baroness DAVID

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I say that I was of course aware of that situation, which is only to be expected because I too have read the Government's expenditure plans document. But is the noble Lord aware that all but three local authorities are cutting discretionary awards? Is he aware that this very morning, giving evidence to the Select Committee on Education, Science and the Arts, Dr. Richard Hoggart said, "Discretionary awards are being wiped out"? What action are the Government going to take in the light of these actions, apparently paying no attention to the money that was put into rate support grant for the purpose of discretionary awards?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I do not think that the noble Baroness should believe all that she reads in the newspapers.

Several noble Lords: Oh!

Lord BELSTEAD

Well, my Lords, I think the noble Baroness would be well advised to take my advice. The reply which I gave to the noble Baroness represents a considerable increase over the period to 1983–84 which was taken into account when the Government made up their Expenditure White Paper, and I repeat that there is no reason why there should not be an expansion over the period that I am talking about.

Lord ALEXANDER of POTTERHILL

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could clarify one particular point in my mind. We all know that the nature of the rate support grant gives the Government no control whatever on how rate support monies put into the grant for education are necessarily used. There is no guarantee therefore that the provisions that the Government intended to be made in this field will necessarily apply. My concern, however, is with a particular issue of grants, namely, grants to bodies— A noble Lord: The noble Lord should ask a question.

Lord ALEXANDER of POTTERHILL

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the impact of the failure to make grants to bodies which would qualify for grant from the European Community's Social Fund if the grants were made in this country? In other words, the failure of local authorities to make grants for such projects means that we are not getting the use of the Social Fund which is available for us.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I accept that what the noble Lord is saying may very well be—and knowing the noble Lord's experience, almost certainly is—a consequence of the non-making of grants in certain cases by certain authorities. But the Government believe that the discretionary grant system works not unreasonably well and it is a system which they have no intention of changing at the present time.

Baroness GAITSKELL

My Lords, is it not a fact that there is very high youth unemployment in areas where there is also high adult unemployment? Does this not engender the most terrible resentment among young people and a mounting bitterness, which is very easy to understand when the Government are really mortgaging our future? Is it not also surprising when we hear the Prime Minister usually introduce her remarks on cuts with the words, "I am the last person to do this"—that or the other? Is this not cynical—

Several noble Lords: Speech!

Baroness GAITSKELL

It is not a speech; it is a question. Is it not cynical the way the Prime Minister says that? Altogether it is a complete scandal.

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, I was not aware that unemployment, and particularly the tragedy of youth unemployment, was something which was new; it has been with us for some years, and I. for one, would not make a political point about it. I was also not aware that youth unemployment trenched upon the question which I am being asked today, namely, discretionary grants by local authorities, except in this respect: if you are a young person and have the ill fortune to be unemployed and drawing benefit for that, it is still possible, I am glad to say, to receive a discretionary grant at the same time in order to take up a part-time place in a college of further education. This is a practice which certainly we inherited from the previous Government, and I am delighted to say that it continues.

Baroness DAVID

My Lords, is the Minister aware—if not I should like him to be—that I would not base any question on newspaper reports without checking the facts? In the light of what he has said, will he give me an assurance that there will not be drastic cuts in discretionary awards?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, the discretionary awards are made by local authorities. The assurance the noble Baroness wants me to give is, therefore, totally beyond my power to give, although, of course, I would wish to do everything I possibly can for the noble Baroness in these matters.

Baroness BACON

My Lords, is not the noble Lord the Minister rather missing the point, in that what is happening is that the Government are keeping local authorities short of money and driving them to cut discretionary grants and many other things? Is not this another example of taking the burden away from taxation and putting it on to local authorities through rates, and the rates are a very unfair form of taxation?

Lord BELSTEAD

My Lords, if the noble Baroness will forgive me, I do not think I can have made myself clear in my original Answer. I said that the Government's public expenditure plans in the White Paper provided for a growth in the provision for home students in non-advanced further education, and our estimate is that this should permit a 10 per cent. increase in the number of students enrolled on non-advanced courses up to 1983–84. That does not square with what the noble Baroness has just said.