§ 3.42 p.m.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, and with the connivance of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, I should like to make a Statement about Iran which the Prime Minister has made in another place. The Statement is as follows:
"President Carter has asked the friends and allies of the United States for their help and support in the serious situation over the continued illegal detention of the American hos 26 tages in Tehran. This illegal act by Iran is now in its sixth month.
"The United States' Administration and the American people have exercised remarkable patience and restraint in the face of the greatest provocation. Time and again their reasonable hopes of progress have been dashed. It has become clear that the prospects for the early release of the hostages through diplomatic action have markedly diminished.
"The United States' Administration have put up with the flouting of international law and established diplomatic practice by Iran for several months in the hope of securing the release of the hostages. But naturally they now feel obliged to demonstrate that the continued detention of their people will carry increasing penalties. They under- 27 standably expect solidarity from their allies and we, for our part, have been giving, and will continue to give, them our utmost support.
"At an early stage in the crisis we agreed on certain measures in the financial and commercial fields, on which we have been co-operating with the United States. These remain in force. No arms or defence equipment has been sent from this country to Iran since the hostage crisis arose in early November. In December we made a substantial reduction in the size of our Embassy in Tehran.
"The European Foreign Ministers met in Lisbon last week. The Foreign Ministers of the Nine expressed their solidarity with the United States and the American people and instructed their ambassadors to make an immediate approach to the President of Iran to urge the release of the hostages and to seek precise assurances about the dates and methods by which their release would take place and then to report back in person. Our Ambassador in Tehran, Sir John Graham, is due to arrive in London this afternoon.
"The Americans have asked us to consider a wide range of measures. These include applying the economic sanctions which the Russians vetoed at the United Nations in January. They also include an eventual break in relations with Iran if there is no progress. It is important that whatever we do should be effective and should be capable of commanding a broad measure of international support.
"We are now in close and urgent consultation with our European partners as well as with other friendly countries about how best we can together respond to President Carter's appeal to us to intensify our efforts. When the Foreign Ministers of the EEC meet on Monday of next week, I hope the necessary decisions will be taken. This therefore can only be an interim Statement and a further report will be made to the House after next week's meeting, or sooner if required".
§ 3.46 p.m.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy 28 Lords, may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for making this Statement to the House this afternoon. May I also join with him in reaffirming our own unreserved condemnation of the Iranian action in taking and holding these hostages. I want to make the position of the Opposition abundantly clear once more by saying that we regard this action as being contrary to international law, in defiance of the Security Council and the International Court, as well as a persistent cruelty to the hostages themselves and their families at home. We therefore support what the Government have so far done to help the Americans to get the peaceful return of their fellow nationals from Tehran.
As regards the proposals or suggestions lately made, I assume, by the American President to our own Government, the noble Lord has been more forthcoming than I thought he might be about that matter. I shall not press him any further about what the Americans have suggested to us, except to ask whether, in fact, a time-scale has been proposed to us and to other friends of America, about these proposals. There are various suggestions in the Press and on the media about this.
However, perhaps more importantly, may I refer to what, I think, is page 4 of the authorised version of the Statement—if that, in fact, is the final version—where the Foreign Secretary refers to the American request to us to consider "a wide range of measures". May I say on behalf of the Opposition that we fully agree with what he says, and I shall quote it again:
It is important that whatever we do should be effective and should be capable of commanding a broad measure of international support".For that reason discussions with our European partners as well as with other friendly countries, not necessarily confined to the West, would seem to us to be the right way to go about this. Indeed, may I ask the noble Lord to consider the possibility, which we would welcome, of a meeting of the Americans, their friends and allies, not only in the West and not only in Europe, with a view to concerted action to try to bring home to the Iranian Government and people the enormity of what they have done and what they persist in continuing with. Indeed, a meeting on that basis at the highest level would seem to us to be justified because this 29 strikes at the roots of international agreement at its most fundamental. What has been done—unless it is speedily put right—may lead to similar and even more serious action of the same sort in other parts of the world.Finally, I should like to say—and I am sure that I speak for most people in this country without distinction of party—that we greatly admire the firmness and the forbearance of the American President, the American Administration and the American people in the way in which they have faced this extremely difficult, and indeed harrowing, experience. What a temptation it would be to take war-like action; but it is a matter of pride, not of weakness, on the part of the Americans—in which we join—that the American President has resolutely explored every possible avenue of peaceful negotiation and compromise. Even yesterday he said that he proposed to go along that road, exerting economic and diplomatic pressure, and only in the very last resort—and he emphasised this—would he consider other means of resolving this very serious issue.
I also wish to thank the noble Lord for indicating that he and the Prime Minister will report to the two Houses after the next meeting of our European partners, and will certainly report to Parliament before any decision as to the proposals made to us by the Americans is taken by Her Majesty's Government.
§ 3.50 p.m.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, we, too, should like to thank the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary for repeating this Statement. Broadly speaking, in principle I should like to associate myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, has said and, in addition, ask two further questions. First, do not the Government believe that while we shall—as I think that we, on these Benches, hope—now go along with the Americans in applying the measures of pressure laid down in the relevant United Nations' resolution, if anything further is contemplated, would it not be such a very grave decision that it should have to be agreed both by the European members of the alliance and the Americans jointly? Will the Government further agree that the real danger for the West—as we see it anyhow—is not so much that presented by the wretched 30 Government of Iran, which may collapse at any moment, but the possibility that—short, I suppose, of some occupation of the whole area by Western Forces—eventually the Gulf may be largely dominated by an Iran which is in friendly association with the Soviet Government?
§ 3.52 p.m.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am not surprised that the two noble Lords who have spoken broadly agree with the Government and with each other about our attitude to this problem. I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, when he speaks of the patience, the forbearance and the firmness of the Americans. I think that they have been more forbearing than one could have expected in the situation in which they find themselves; the treatment of the hostages is not only horrifying, but totally illegal and against international law. I am sure and know that the only object of the President of the United States' Administration is to secure the release of the hostages, and that is why they are proposing these measures.
Perhaps I could clear up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, about dates and ultimata, which has appeared in the Press this morning. The Americans have not set a date by which they want us to act. In their consultations with the allies, the United States have been bearing in mind the need to relate their actions to developments in Iran, including the programme on elections which lead to the formation of a new assembly. The likely date of this has been mentioned in our discussions. That is why the ambassadors of the Nine were instructed to ask President Bani-Sadr specifically about a date for the release of the hostages. But any discussion of dates has to be related to developments in Iran, not to actions by the United States' allies.
I shall certainly consider the proposal made by the noble Lord about a meeting. Certainly it will be necessary for us, in this country, to consult our eight partners in the Community before reaching any conclusions. I am also quite sure that we should consult with such countries as Australia, New Zealand and, above all, Japan, which of course has enormous interests in that part of the world. If I 31 may, I should like to consider whether a top-level meeting would be possible or suitable.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said that he thought that if any further measures, other than those mentioned by the United States, were considered, it ought to be a matter for all of us because of the gravity of the situation. I would impress upon the House and upon the noble Lord, if it needs to be impressed upon him, that the measures now proposed by the United States are of considerable gravity. One does not want lightly to enter into this without acknowledging the seriousness of the situation in Iran, which has been brought about by the Ayatollah and others. Of course, if any further measures were proposed, we would expect—and I have no doubt it would happen—that the United States would consult her allies before any other decision was taken. I think that that answers the questions asked of me. If I have omitted one, I shall certainly try again.
§ 3.56 p.m.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord this question: Is he aware that it is not so essential to declare a specific date for any further action that may be required, but it is essential that this provides an opportunity to demonstrate the unity of the West? Unless we are capable of doing that, all this talk about the manufacture and deployment of destructive weapons is just a lot of phantasy. The question I want to ask the noble Lord, and which I think is most important—I say that although, no doubt, there are other important questions—is this: What I want to know, and what I think the general public will want to know, is what will be the action of Her Majesty's Government at the meeting of Foreign Ministers? What will they say? It is just possible—it could even be probable—that some of the representatives of the Council of Ministers may be somewhat difficult, even obstructive, and may not be in agreement. In those circumstances, what is to be the action of Her Majesty's Government? The noble Lord can take it from me that, as we have indicated in the past, some of us are anxious to co-operate with Her Majesty's Government in matters of defence in order to deter aggression; but 32 we may require to reconsider our position if Her Majesty's Government fail to associate themselves with our principal ally, upon whom we may have to depend in the event of an emergency.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, nobody would disagree with the noble Lord about the need for the unity of the West. That is why we believe it is right that we should consult with our allies in Europe. The position of Her Majesty's Government at that meeting will be to seek agreement by the allies for an adequate response to the request of the United States which will lead to the release of the hostages.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, in an exceptionally busy Easter did my noble friend have an opportunity to see the admirable and most statesmanlike interview which President Carter gave on BBC television last night? If he did, will he not agree that there was no measure of suggestion of an ultimatum, and that the fact that my noble friend has cleared up that misunderstanding will give widespread satisfaction? Also, there was no mention of or haste to have a specific date, which again he cleared up, which will give satisfaction. By any chance did my noble friend notice that at the end it was announced that the BBC had edited the interview? Is it not a rather risky undertaking to edit an interview of such grave and sensitive matters as an announcement by the President of the United States at this very crucial moment?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he said about the interview and the ultimatum. I think that those of your Lordships who saw the programme will agree with him; I, myself, did not see it. although I read the transcript. With regard to the editing of the interview, I do not know exactly what took place and I am happy to say that I am not responsible for what the BBC does, but, no doubt, the authorities will take note of what my noble friend has said.
§ Baroness GAITSKELLMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that there has been an extraordinary and really an undeserved coolness towards President Carter in this whole matter, with people suggesting one thing as though war was 33 not to be considered in this situation? For that reason, would we do our best to show that we at least are 100 per cent, with him in all these matters?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that Her Majesty's Government, and indeed the Opposition and the Liberal Party as evidenced by what they have said this afternoon, are by no means cool towards President Carter. Indeed, it seems to me that the reverse is true, and it is President Carter who sensibly has been very cool during the whole of this episode.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary has emphasised the gravity of the situation we face, and of course the gravity of the consequences of any action that might be taken. What will be the parliamentary opportunities for discussion of a governmental decision? Does the Statement of the Foreign Secretary mean that executive action by the Government could follow the meeting of the nine Ministers, or do the Government contemplate parliamentary discussion of a situation which is fraught with danger for the whole world?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think what probably would happen, depending of course on what decisions are reached on Monday or Tuesday in Brussels, is that the Government must come to a decision about what it is right they should do with their allies and then report to Parliament and have a debate if necessary.
§ Lord MISHCONMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that one of the problems that may face those who wish otherwise to indulge in concerted action is that some countries may suffer a fatal blow if they are deprived of oil? In these circumstances, will concerted action mean a sacrifice by those countries who can manage to dispense some of their surplus, and thus aid those who are prepared to agree with this action and who might otherwise suffer the sacrifice I have mentioned?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I have no doubt that these are the considerations which will be discussed not only in Brussels but with our other allies.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the whole American people are solidly behind President Carter in his action and in his contemplated actions towards freeing the hostages? In fact, he is rather behind the American people in the action he has taken. What is really needed now is an assurance that our country will stand solidly behind President Carter in his actions just as if 50 British hostages were being detained in Tehran instead of 50 American hostages.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think that what I have sought to say during this short discussion is that Her Majesty's Government will not only stand solidly behind President Carter but will I seek ways and means of helping the United States to secure the release of the hostages.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary may get very bored hearing me pronounce about public relations, but I do it from former experience. Will the noble Lord assure us that he will remain sensitively aware of the reactions to quite small things in public opinion, and that what we must do is to avoid any impression at this time that we are in any way thinking of drawing back or hesitating? That would have a bad effect on a wide circle of people.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I should not have thought that anybody who had listened to anything I have said this afternoon could have drawn that conclusion.
§ Lord GREENHILL of HARROWMy Lords, would the Foreign Secretary agree that one of the main objectives of the students is to prevent the emergence of an Iranian Government which could take a more or less normal and reasonable place in the society of nations? It is not only the welfare of the hostages that we have to consider but the fact that the terrorists are trying deliberately to prevent the emergence of a government which could settle the problem in a reasonable and satisfactory way.
§ Lord CARRINGTONYes, my Lords; I think that these again are the sort of considerations which both the United States and her allies have to take into account.