§ Lord WOLFENDENMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they agree with the conclusion of the Thirty-ninth Report of the European Communities Committee on Genetic Manipulation (DNA) that the draft Directive 5899/79 would be too restrictive, and that a Council recommendation would be more appropriate; and if so, what steps they are taking in the Council of Ministers to secure that objective.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young)My Lords, the Government agree that it is the case that the draft Directive would be too restrictive. Our views about possible alternatives, including the possibility of a recommendation, have been made known informally to officials of the Commission of the European Communities. We understand that the Commission is considering these, together with the views of other Member States.
§ Lord WOLFENDENMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for that reply, which I am sure will give considerable satisfaction not only in this House but outside. Further, might I ask whether the Government have in mind any steps that might be taken to remove from the public mind fears in this whole field which, the experts assure us, have been much exaggerated?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, in so far as there is such public worry, we have in the Genetic Manipulation Advisory Group an expert body which is particularly 1338 concerned with safety hazards. The group publishes periodic reports, and I would draw your Lordships' attention in particular to the relevant paragraphs of the second report of the group, which was published last December. The group has on it both scientists and representatives of the public interest.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, will the Minister not agree that it is highly desirable for the Commission, so far as possible, to attempt to harmonise the rules on genetic manipulation with those to be introduced in the United States?—bearing in mind that a great many of the companies which are involved in this field are multinationals and can readily move their research and development, and, indeed, their production from one country to another, and that they will tend to go where the regulations are least onerous. Will the noble Baroness also not agree that in the United States very powerful scientific advice is available to the Government in formulating the recommendations, and that therefore it is unlikely that more restrictive rules would be necessary in Europe?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, yes, the Government recognise the points which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has made on this matter. As regards consideration of the matter within the European Communities, the Economic and Social Committee at a meeting in July 1979 considered that in general compulsory notification of experiments—that is, without prior authorisation—would be sufficient. The committee is likely to look at the Commission's proposals again, particularly if they are substantially revised. The European Parliament has not yet considered the draft Directive, but is due to do so. Following representations from Member States—not least from ourselves—we understand that the Commission of the European Communities is reconsidering its proposals.
§ Lord ASHBYMy Lords, biologists working in this field will be deeply grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for the reply which she has given to this Question. I should like to ask her whether she would be willing to press the matter a little further with the Council in two ways —or ask her honourable friend in another place to do so—when the Council meets. First, will she reinforce the recommendations in this report by drawing the 1339 Council's attention to the fact that it was scientists themselves who alerted the world to these potential dangers? They declared a moratorium on their work and have behaved very responsibly ever since, without dictation from Governments. Will the noble Baroness also ask those who go to the Council to transmit this second point, that already the European Science Foundation and the European Molecular Biology Organisation have given a great deal of attention to this matter, and their interests cover not only the European Community countries but others like Switzerland, where very important work is being done in this field?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, the Government will certainly take note of the important points which the noble Lord, Lord Ashby, has made. As he will know, the draft Directive, which originated from within the Commission, has not yet been submitted to the Council of Ministers. It is due for discussion in the European Parliament, and until that discussion has taken place it is unlikely to go before the Council. The Government believe that it would be premature to raise this matter in the Council of Ministers yet, but we are in close touch with Her Majesty's Government's permanent representative in Brussels and he will give us adequate warning of any impending submission to the Council. We shall consider what further action to take in the light of the situation at that time.
§ Lord RITCHIE-CALDERMy Lords, will the Minister please affirm our concern that during the discussions— whatever may result from the Council of Ministers— they will bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, that this is not a matter which concerns merely the Community; it is not a matter which concerns a country; it is a vast international problem with very large impending developments? We have been talking reassuringly, and I am sure that everyone here will be reassured by the fact that up to now the matter has been handled fairly responsibly. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Ashby, pointed out, this was on the initiative of the scientists themselves. But we are now moving into commercial development, and that is where we really need—
§ Lord RITCHIE-CALDERMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we are now going into the field of commercial development, and that it is important that we should have all the safeguards that we can possibly secure?
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, yes, we are aware of the importance of this. Whatever might come out of all these discussions, we accept that it is a matter of worldwide interest, and it may well be that whatever is decided within the Community may be a first step in getting some kind of international policy on this matter.