§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the percentage increase in planned expenditure on defence in the financial year 1980–81 over the amount actually spent in 1979–80, and by what percentage that amount exceeded the amount actually spent in 1978–79.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of DEFENCE (Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)My Lords, 3.5 per cent. and 2.9 per cent., respectively, in real terms. This is on the basis of the provisional forecast of outturn for 1979–80 and other figures published last week in the Public Expenditure White Paper.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply and for the extremely courteous and informative letter that he sent me, may I ask whether he can confirm that the 3 per cent. target can be claimed to have been achieved only if the base—line taken is the planned level of expenditure during the preceding year rather than the actual outturn?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, it is with some temerity that I become involved in the metaphysics of public finance with an ex-Treasury Minister. Nevertheless, I think that I can confirm the comment which my noble friend made, but I should like to add that there was an overspend in the previous year which anticipated some of the expenditure that belonged to last year arid that is why there has been an adjustment.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply and its somewhat metaphysical nature. However, does it not follow that, in terms of actually increasing the provision for national defence—which is the spirit of our undertaking to NATO—there has not been the full 3 per cent. increase?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, to the extent that there has been a 2.9 per cent. rather than a 3 per cent. increase I must agree with my noble friend. But, I hope that we shall not become too deeply in argument about £8 million on £8,000 million.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, however the percentage increase has been brought about, has the increase been spent upon making us more efficient in equipment and weapon-wise, or has it been spent on salaries and wages?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, there will have been a little bit of both.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will my noble friend look a little further into the future and perhaps tell us what the increase will be two years ahead? Does he recall that, in the face of the promises upon which this Government were elected, we are under an obligation to spend at least 3 per cent. in real terms every year, for two or three years at least? Will he bear in mind that since that promise was made to the country and to NATO the Russian rearmament programme has in every sphere continued to accelerate and menace the Free World?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, I would not want to argue with my noble friend on the need to increase defence expenditure. I have reiterated that many times. My right honourable friend has on a number of occasions—as indeed has the Prime Minister also—reiterated our commitment to the 3 per cent. increase in real terms in the years ahead. I daresay we ought to add, in the best governmental tradition, that that would be taking one year with another; but next year it is intended to be 3.5 per cent.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, I should like to ask a very simple and 1257 elementary question, to which I should be grateful to have at last a clear answer. Are we spending more than other members of NATO on defence, or an equal amount, or are we spending less?
§ Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, that question sounds deceptively simple, but it is not. If the noble Lord is talking in terms of the actual figures of money spent, I am sorry to say that I do not have them with me. However, I recall that if we make the comparisons on the basis of the two commonly used measures, then the first is the question of the percentage of GNP—and here, again, I speak from memory—and my recollection is that this country is the highest. If, however, we look at our contribution on a per capita basis then we are rather lower down the league.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, I should like the noble Lord to be aware that I am grateful for that answer.