§ 4.16 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, MINISTRY of AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES and FOOD (Earl Ferrers)404 My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my honourable friend the Minister of State, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The Statement is as follows:
"My right honourable friend, who is this afternoon accompanying the Prime Minister on her visit to the Chancellor of the Federal German Republic, represented the United Kingdom at a meeting of the Council of Ministers (Fisheries) on 29th October and at meetings of the Council of Ministers (Agriculture) on 29th and 30th October.
"The Fisheries Council agreed to set up a high-level group of officials to consider the state of fish stocks and the proposals which the Commission intends to put forward for their future management. This will prepare the way for discussion at the next meeting of the Council on 3rd-4th December, and will enable a fresh start to be made on the negotiation of an acceptable common fisheries policy. The Council also extended to the end of the year, on terms which continue to safeguard the United Kingdom's position, the existing Council decision on fishing operations in 1979.
"At an informal meeting of the Council of Ministers (Agriculture), Vice-President Gundelach described the crisis approaching for the Common Agricultural Policy through its rising cost and the impending exhaustion of the Community's own resources ' which finance it. There was a general discussion of possible methods of reducing the cost of the policy, particularly on milk and sugar. The Commission will be making proposals in due course. My right honourable friend made it clear that the United Kingdom would not agree to any increase in the ceiling on own resources ' or any measures intended to evade the effect of that ceiling in limiting the cost of the CAP.
"The formal meeting of the Agriculture Council was concerned almost entirely with sheepmeat. My right honourable friend informed the Council of recent developments in relation to France's import restrictions and demanded an assurance that the French 405 Government would comply with the judgment of the European Court by removing immediately and permanently all levies or restrictions of any kind on imports of sheepmeat from the United Kingdom. The French Minister declined to give such an assurance. Other Ministers expressed the strongest disapproval of France's attitude. My right honourable friend made it clear that this was the first time that a member country had decided positively to ignore the Treaty and the verdict of the European Court, and that this constituted a threat to the very foundations of the Community. The Commission supported the view of my right honourable friend and stated that the action of the French Government was not just playing with fire but was playing with potential catastrophe. The Commissioner stated that he would be raising this crucial issue at today's meeting of the Commission and would be recommending that they should take action against the French Government to secure early French compliance with the Court's decision.
"There was also some further discussion of proposals for a Common Market organisation for sheepmeat, but no progress was made. France proposed the unbinding of the Community's obligations to New Zealand and other third countries under the GATT, so as to enable the Community to control or reduce the levels of imports. My right honourable friend said that in no circumstances would we agree to any diminution of New Zealand's rights. He also rejected French suggestions for intervention measures, and made it clear that we could not accept proposals for Community financed premiums which discriminated grossly against the United Kingdom, or any regime which did not fully safeguard the interests of British producers and consumers, and New Zealand."
§ My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
§ 4.20 p.m.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I have carefully read the Statement, and I must say that if I were in the position of the present Minister of Agriculture in Europe, I should have taken a similar stance. I support very much what he has done 406 and I welcome the Statement and the attitude of the Government on this matter I have one or two short questions on fisheries. I know that here there has been a problem, especially over Norway pout, and I saw some of the difficulties reported the other day in the Financial Times. I think it is the kind of problem which could easily be settled by bilateral talks between Ministers in the Council. I am sure, knowing his track record over the period when I dealt with him, that the new Danish Minister, Paul Dalsager, will be responsible on this matter.
On the other hand, I agree that it is a wise decision to set up this new high-level group of officials to consider the state of fish stocks, and obviously we shall have to look carefully at the proposals which come forward for their future management. No doubt this will provide us with an opportunity at some later date to probe the Government on this matter. I gather that this will prepare the way for a discussion at the next meeting of the Council on 3rd and 4th December, so I should be grateful if the House could be informed of progress in this field.
On the question of the exhaustion of resources, I noticed today, again in the Financial Times—which I think covers Europe very well—that Gundelach has stated that the Common Market is going broke. I know that some people would like this and would welcome it. I should not. I think it would be a tragedy if the Community ended with this kind of occurrence. I want the Community to work. I used to be a critic of the Community, but from my own experience there I believe that we should make it work and should make our own contribution felt. That is certainly the view of most people.
On the question of reducing the cost of the policy, particularly on milk and sugar, as I have said, the Commission will be making proposals in due course and I hope that the Minister will be firm on this subject. I am certain that he will. I know that he has said he will and that he would not agree to any increase in the ceiling on our own resources, or any measures intended to evade the effect of that ceiling in limiting the cost of the CAP.
On sheepmeat, which has, of course, captured the headlines, the Government's 407 stance is quite right. I was glad that we were enabled to get at least one truck load of sheepmeat into France. We must keep up the pressure. I think that the French are very wrong here, and everyone accepts that. I am very glad that the noble Earl reported today on further discussions and proposals for a Common Market organisation for sheepmeat. He said that no progress was made. He also referred specifically to New Zealand. We must not let New Zealand down. I have said this over and over again, even when some of our own people were trying to restrict exports of New Zealand farm products and dairy products to this country. I have always—in Brussels and out of Brussels—defended New Zealand, because I believe that New Zealand is British in the best sense. That is not being a jingoist in any way. I hope that there will be no let down on this issue, because we owe so much to New Zealand farmers and to the New Zealand people. So, generally, I welcome the Statement.
§ 4.25 p.m.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, I, too, should like to welcome the Statement. Particularly, it is right that we are now talking once again on a common fisheries policy. It is vital that we settle on a common fisheries policy in the near future, because we have tremendous problems coming along with the applications to join of Spain and Portugal. I would ask the Government to remain firm on one matter: that we in this country control the breeding grounds in our own areas. I say that because only we have the equipment and experience and—indeed, as would appear from the actions of some of our partners—the desire to control the breeding grounds. In this, I hope that the Government will remain firm.
With regard to sheepmeat, France is not being as clever as she usually is. She is not appearing to be communautaire, and I hope that, while being fairly firm, we shall not be too sanctimonious, as our own record in the Common Market under certain Ministers in the last Government—not the noble Lord sitting beside me—is not too good.
While I admit that the end price is the important thing for the sheep farmers of this country, I hope that the Government 408 will not evade their responsibility for the hill farmers of this country, will look again at the compensatory allowances and will try to put them up to the maximum permitted under the EEC regulations. Of all the farming communities here who are genuinely suffering, there is no question that the hill farmers are the people who are most affected. I hope, indeed, that the Government will look at that point very closely. Otherwise, with regard to the top end of our costs in the EEC, there is no doubt that it must be done within our own resources. But I hope that if the Commission are talking again of a co-responsibility payment in milk, the Government will insist that this applies evenly over the whole of the EEC, and does not attack and do harm to the more efficient herds, particularly those in this country.
§ 4.27 p.m.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I am grateful both to the noble Lord, Lord Peart, and to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, for the support and welcome which they have given to this Statement. It is a very difficult situation indeed. I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Peart, say that if he had been at the Council of Agricultural Ministers he would have taken decisions very similar to those which my right honourable friend has taken.
With regard to fisheries, about which the noble Lord, Lord Peart, asked one or two questions, I think that the best way of answering him is to say that the whole matter is still the subject of negotiation. These talks are to continue at a very high level, to see whether there is a way of getting over the problem and meeting the difficulties which other countries have found; and, indeed, which we have found. My right honourable friend is certainly open at any time to have bilateral talks with other Ministers on fisheries questions, and indeed he has done so. But I should like to give both the noble Lord, Lord Peart, and the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, the assurance that the fishing is to be discussed on its own merits. It is not a question to be traded over or bartered with any other aspects of the Community. It stands or falls and is discussed on its own merits.
The noble Lord, Lord Peart, said that he wanted the European Community to 409 continue, even though he was not at first enamoured of it. I agree entirely. It would be a total disaster if circumstances were to come about where the Community did not continue. It is our fervent hope and desire that it will, and these discussions which we are having are in order to resolve problems which Member States have, both internally and in relation with others. This is something which is not a cause, and should not be a cause, of a breakdown. Nevertheless, the action which the French have taken over sheepmeat is unique, is unprecedented and is undesirable, in so far as it is an action which strikes at the heart of the concept of the European Community. We hope very much that they will see the light, that wisdom will prevail, and that they will turn round and agree to conform with the judgment of the European Court.
The noble Lord, Lord Peart, said that he did not want New Zealand to be let down, either, because they are the most British of people, in the most generous sense of the term. I agree with him. The Government are most concerned that the rights and agreements which have been arrived at for New Zealand should continue. I have had the privilege of going out to New Zealand and I realise how dependent that country is on its exports to the United Kingdom. This is part of the Community's responsibility, and they acknowledge it.
The noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, referred specifically to sheep farmers. While outside the general concept of the Statement, this question is attached to it because of the sheepmeat regime. I can assure the noble Lord that the present Government are highly concerned to ensure that the hill sheep farmers are reasonably, adequately and properly looked after and protected, in so far as it is consistent with Community obligations. I can give him an assurance that we are concerned to ensure that that part of the agricultural industry is permitted to continue and indeed, one hopes, to flourish.
§ Lord WALSTONMy Lords, as someone who sits on these Benches and as a very old supporter of the EEC, may I be allowed to add my voice to those who have welcomed the Government's line. 410 I believe that they are taking a wise line, not only from the point of view of this country but also from the point of view of the future of the Community. May I assure the noble Earl that it is far better to be, as he and his colleagues are now attempting to be, tough, but in a very rational manner, over the two outstanding issues of fisheries and the import of New Zealand sheepmeat and our own export of sheepmeat to the Continent, rather than to shilly-shally and try to reach agreement on a matter of principle where there is only one question as to the right line to be taken.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for his support and for the observations he has made. These issues are so vitally important to individual industries within a country and within countries that it is very easy for them to get blown up, almost out of context. They are vitally important. However, the purpose of the EEC is to resolve conflicts and differences. It is our intention to resolve those differences and not to make them become a point of conflict.
§ Lord PORRITTMy Lords, I am sure that this is completely out of order but I should like to add my voice to that of the noble Lord, Lord Walston, in thanking the noble Earl for his remarks about New Zealand. I can assure the noble Earl that they will be very sympathetically received in the country to which he referred.