HL Deb 25 October 1979 vol 402 cc213-20

3.41 p.m.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Elton)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows: "Mr. Speaker, I will, with permission, make a Statement about the government of Northern Ireland.

"The Queen's Speech declared the Government's intention, to seek an acceptable way of restoring to the people of Northern Ireland more control over their own affairs '.

"Since taking office in May, I have, for this purpose, had wide-ranging discussions in the Province, and a series of private meetings with leaders of the main Northern Ireland political parties represented in this House.

"My discussions and meetings have confirmed the Government's view that it is right to transfer back to locally elected representatives some at least of the powers of government at present exercised from Westminster.

"The political parties in Northern Ireland themselves, in their election manifestoes, asked for this, and there is widespread support for it in the Province.

"There is, moreover, awareness that such a restoration of political responsibility can only be brought about in Northern Ireland by all parts of the community recognising and respecting the interests of others.

"It will in due course be a matter for Parliament to decide, on proposals put to it by Her Majesty's Government, what kind of powers and responsibilities are to be transferred to elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland and through what kind of institutions they are to be exercised.

"The Government wish, however, to put forward proposals which, so far as possible, have the agreement of the people of Northern Ireland.

"We intend therefore to convene a conference of the principal political parties in Northern Ireland to seek the highest level of agreement that we can on proposals for a transfer of responsibility which the Government might put before this House in due course.

"We are, for this purpose, preparing a consultative document, which will be laid before Parliament, to serve as the basis of the conference.

"The document will set out the range of powers and responsibilities which the Government for their part would be prepared to see transferred from Westminster.

"The document will set out as options for consideration by the conference a number of ways in which the transferred powers might be exercised; and in each case with what Her Majesty's Government would regard as reasonable and appropriate arrangements to take account of the interests of the minority.

"Responsibility for law and order in the Province, which—as I indicated in reply to Questions earlier today—remains the Government's overriding priority in Northern Ireland, would not be transferred.

"I shall shortly be approaching the party leaders concerned to discuss with them the arrangements for a conference to be convened as soon as possible and, I would hope, by the end of November.

"Our aim will be to secure from the conference, drawing on suggestions in the consultative document, workable and acceptable arrangements for restoring to the people of Northern Ireland greater responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs which we can then recommend to this House in fulfilment of our commitment in The Queen's Speech".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

3.45 p.m.

Lord BLEASE

My Lords, I wish to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement to this House. I have received a copy of it within the last few minutes. As this is the first occasion since the Summer Recess on which there has been an opportunity to mention Northern Ireland affairs in this House, I feel sure that all noble Lords will wish to join with me in expressing our deep shock and grief at the tragic murder of Lord Mountbatten. Also I have great concern about the continuing senseless and vicious campaign of violence being perpetrated against the Irish people both North and South. Our heartfelt sympathy is with the families of all the security forces and of all innocent victims, civilians, who have suffered much during these recent months through murder, maiming and malice.

I wish also to say that, along with noble Lords in this House and with Members in another place who realise in practical terms the problems of civilised living in Northern Ireland, we acknowledge the tremendous difficulties that confront the Northern Ireland Secretary of State and his Ministers in obtaining peace, justice and progress in Northern Ireland. The Statement today proposes further discussions and consultations by the Northern Ireland Secretary of State with the main representatives of political parties in Northern Ireland in the form of a conference.

In offering my support for these efforts, which I hope will be fundamentally based on democratic political persuasion, I would add some words of caution. I should like the Minister to indicate what hopes the Northern Ireland Secretary of State has at present, after having carried out a series of consultations with the representatives of political parties, that there will be agreement by the political parties in Northern Ireland to participate in this constitutional conference. If one or more of the parties boycott the conference, what will be the arrangements for the decisions that the Government and Parliament will have to take by way of option?

I note and welcome the fact that the text and terms of the consultative document will be generally released in another place and in this House and I would suggest that such a document ought to be widely available to the public. I say that because, from knowledge and experience of other similar conferences and assemblies held in Northern Ireland over the years, if this is not done there will be a series of leaks and ugly forms of speculation which can only harm such discussions. A further point I should like to suggest is that perhaps a record of the progress of the consultations may be made regularly so that the general public may in some way voice their opinions on the progress of the discussions.

I feel that I would be failing in my responsibility to the Northern Ireland people and to this House, if not to my own conscience, if I did not mention the great concern and frustration in Northern Ireland about approaches to security matters during these past five months. Whatever may be the particular need for measures to uphold law and order, I certainly welcome the point set out in the Statement which says that, Responsibility for law and order in the Province, which—as I indicated in reply to Questions earlier today—remains the Government's overriding priority in Northern Ireland, would not be transferred.". I welcome that at this time in the affairs of Northern Ireland, whatever subsequent events may lead to; that is a very important principle which has my full support.

A further point that I feel I should like to stress is that while the Government must give full recognition to the elected representatives of Northern Ireland—and I stand by that wholeheartedly—I believe that in the present Northern Ireland situation efforts should be made to strengthen the pluralistic aspects of responsibility and influence in our society. Therefore, I would again suggest that the consultations and discussions would benefit by involving representatives of the business community, trade union representatives, the churches, educational and other professional bodies. Finally, my Lords, I would hope that these discussions and consultations will take place in an atmosphere of constitutional conference. I believe that it is vital that issues concerning social and economic matters should also be included. Homes, jobs and educational opportunity are closely linked with peace, progress and constitutional matters in Northern Ireland. So I thank the Minister for the Statement that he has made to the House and look forward to receiving progress reports from time to time.

3.50 p.m.

Lord HAMPTON

My Lords, we too would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for repeating the Statement. We accept that unfortunately there is no magic solution to the problems of the Province and that the Secretary of State has needed time for consultation and discussion with the various parties over there. We now look forward to studying the consultative document planned to serve as the basis of a conference and certainly would not question its stated aim, to seek the highest level of agreement". The great problem which, of course, remains is how to get all parts of the community to recognise and respect the interests of others. None the less, we hope wholeheartedly that good may come from this endeavour, fully accepting that responsibility for law and order should not be transferred at this stage.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, and to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, for their reception of this Statement which marks the opening of a new and critical phase in the future of the Province. I am grateful also to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, for recording his sympathy, which all of us share, with the family of the late Lord Mountbatten. I shall not dilate upon that great gentleman in this place now, but we all know what we think of him.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, recognised the difficulties which face us and we welcome his support. He asked me a number of specific questions, the first of which was: What would we do if one or more of the parties would not come to the conference? In our view that would be a most regrettable development and I trust that it will not happen. Both Parliament and the people of Northern Ireland would not understand why any party should not attend when less than six months ago they had all fought the election on the basis that they wanted to make progress. The noble Lord went on to ask what would happen if the conference were to fail. I do not believe in anticipating failure, but if it were to fail to reach agreement, the Government would put forward what they judged to be the best proposals for making progress in the light of the views that were expressed in the conference.

The noble Lord asked whether there would be a freely available record of the consultations. I believe that it will be best for this relatively small gathering to meet in private, although the members thereof may release as they wish what has proceeded there. On the question of security and whether that will hamper the proceedings of the conference, I think that it is only necessary to emphasise that it would be playing into the hands of the terrorists to accept that every further outrage they commit constitutes a veto on further progress, and that is what that would be.

The noble Lord also suggested that we might ask the conference to look at matters wider than constitutional. The people concerned will be completely aware of these matters and I do not doubt that they will raise such matters as they see fit. The consultative document will not preclude members from introducing ideas of their own.

Lord PLANT

My Lords, I should like to associate myself with what my noble friend Lord Blease has said. I speak as chairman of the Human Rights Commission of Northern Ireland. I am circumscribed in making a statement here and I must put it as a series of questions. First, would the Minister agree that it is only the people of Northern Ireland who can put their own house in order and that by and large the great majority would welcome the Statement that he has made? Secondly, I recently attended the memorial service at Aldershot for the 18 soldiers murdered at Warren Point. Is the Minister aware that there is a memorial book in the chapel at Aldershot with the names of 300 soldiers who have laid down their lives in Northern Ireland?

My third question concerns the time-scale. The Minister has said that by November these discussions would be taking place. Can he inform the House of the time-scale envisaged after the initial discussions?

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Plant, that it is only the citizens of the Province who can put their own house in order. It is the duty of the Government to try to bring about the circumstances under which they are able so to do and to provide the encouragement for those who may be reluctant to make the attempt. It will be a function of public opinion in this country—by which I mean the whole of the United Kingdom—to make it apparent to any who are reluctant to look and listen and speak rather than to shout, that this is something which the people will not tolerate.

I too have seen with proper humility the memorial to which the noble Lord referred and with real sorrow I see that it grows longer every week.

As regards the timing, I very much hope that we shall have something concrete to proceed on by the end of this year.

Lord DERWENT

My Lords, I should like to raise one point with my noble friend. Did I understand him correctly to say that there was no chance of the public being kept fully informed during the discussions? If that is so I think it is most regrettable.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, subject to advice, my understanding is that there will not be published a Hansard account, as it were; on the other hand it is not human nature for there to be a revelation, after three weeks of silence, of a conclusion reached. It is possible that different interpretations may be put on the proceedings by different participants. However, we shall have to see how we go and grow wise with experience.

The Duke of NORFOLK

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the Government of Southern Ireland have been consulted about this matter and will steps be taken to keep them informed as the conference progresses? I am one of the many people who believe that the secret of this dreary and terrible subject lies much more with keeping the Government of Southern Ireland informed and in trying to bring them along with us.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I am aware of the dimension which the noble Duke has introduced. This is a United Kingdom matter, but of course the Government of the Republic are concerned; of course they will be kept aware of what is going on and I trust that their interest will be sympathetic.