OVERSEAS STUDENTS (Hansard, 7 November 1979)

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Baroness Young)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government remain of the firm opinion that in 1979–80 the quantifiable 812 demand made on public funds by overseas students will amount to about £100 million.

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. May I ask her whether she is aware that the findings of this conference, which no doubt she has read, seem to be broadly speaking acceptable to all those responsible for higher education in this country? Therefore, may I respectfully ask her also whether the Government would agree to give a detailed reply to the arguments advanced by the conference in this paper, so that we may all know the precise reasons for the assumption which has just been made—an assumption without any good reasons supporting it, apparently—that the students are in reality now being subsidised by the State to any extent whatever?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, the basis of the £100 million that I have indicated is that the fees currently paid by overseas students in 1979–80 will amount only to some 40 per cent. of the costs of their courses. The balance of 60 per cent. is currently provided through public funds, and that is the basis of the figure to which I have just referred.

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, if the Minister will be kind enough to read this report she will see that that is simply not so. Indeed, the arguments that can be advanced against that assumption seem overwhelming.

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I have of course read the report to which the noble Lord refers, but the fact is that that is based on using marginal costs whereas for other purposes of public funding of institutions the basis is unit costs.

§ Lord WEDDERBURN of CHARLTON
My Lords, would the Minister tell the House what account the Government have taken of the unanimous plea of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals imploring the Government to reconsider this falacious belief? Secondly, may I ask her to recognise that this policy will debar universities—whose income is being cut by an average of 13 per cent. and in the case of certain institutions, including those in the University of London, in which I am proud to declare 813 an interest, of something over 30 per cent.—from recouping that income from overseas students, especially students from the Commonwealth, who have looked to Britain for many years? That is so because of the massive increase in tuition fees which the Government are insisting on placing on universities, of between £2,000 and £5,000 a year, which will make our universities have the highest tuition fee system in the world? Thirdly, would the noble Baroness not accept the words of the Secretary General of the Vice-Chancellors Committee two days ago, that this policy will inevitably end in universities, in a year or two, being unable to pay their staffs, being unable to meet their commitments—

Several noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord WEDDERBURN of CHARLTON
—and therefore will inevitably damage irreparably the education which they can offer—

Several noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord WEDDERBURN of CHARLTON
—not only to overseas students—I am sure the Minister will wish to hear my final few words—but to home students who come from British schools as well?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, the Government have of course discussed the matter of overseas students with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and it is our proposal that we shall be entering into detailed discussions with them for some means particularly of helping postgraduates. The fact is that every time the charges to overseas students have gone up, so the number of overseas students in this country has increased. It is perfectly clear that the numbers overall have increased from 32,000 in 1970–71 to 85,000 today, so we have to remember that in the background to our thinking. The Government have looked at all these matters in the context of their need to look at the costs of the total education budget and we believe, although we should prefer not to do many things, that in this context this is an appropriate saving that we can make to balance the budget in other respects.

§ Baroness DAVID
My Lords, is it true that there are to be certain reductions for EEC students? If so, would it not be suitable to make similar reductions for Commonwealth students?

§ Baroness YOUNG
There will be special arrangements for EEC students, my Lords, but the way in which many Commonwealth students are currently looked after through ODA will continue.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, may I ask the Minister, and I do so as a former university treasurer, whether it is a fact that as a result of these people being educated in Britain and then going back to their own countries, they forge a link with Britain which serves British industry very well indeed in future years?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, what the noble Lord says undoubtedly has some truth in it and there are those links, but it is very difficult to quantify in exact terms what the gains are. The figures I have given are the figures which apply to the education budget and it is very difficult to offset those against other figures which may be true but which are quite unquantifiable and would not in any event affect the need to cut Government expenditure.

§ Lord ROCHESTER
Nevertheless, my Lords, even if the subsidy is as high as £100 million a year, would it not be very hard to find another subsidy of the same amount which gave the same value for money in terms of our influence in the world at large?

§ Baroness YOUNG
That would be an extremely difficult question to answer, my Lords, because one would have to look at the complete budgets of Government spending. What I and my colleagues are concerned with is the education budget and we have had to look at all aspects of it.

§ Lord GLADWYN
My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that this is not an economy at all, that it is the reverse of an economy?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, that is a statement I am not prepared to accept. I have read the article to which the noble Lord referred, and if one tries to balance 815 it by the amounts of money overseas students might spend in this country, which in effect is describing them as a kind of invisible export, that is an unquantifiable sum, whereas the other sums are in fact on the education budget.

§ Lord ROBBINS
My Lords, will the noble Baroness realise that many of us have no objection to the raising of fees in general, provided that it is done after proper consideration of the financial situation and the benefits and losses accrued therefrom? But there are, I think, a substantial majority of those of us who have worked in universities who regard this discrimination as morally shabby. If I may be permitted to quote in one sentence the thought that goes through my head: I should have been ashamed if, in the mid-thirties when Dr. Emminger did the London School of Economics the honour of registering there, I had had to say to him, "Since you come from Germany I am obliged to charge you a higher price than someone who comes from Eton".

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, that this matter had not been gone into without very careful consideration of all the facts regarding it; but as an economist he will know better than I that the rate of the fees at universities that home students now pay is, to a certain extent, an artificial figure. When we are talking about students from overseas we should remember that they are now paying more nearly the true cost, and this has therefore put us into a particularly difficult situation. We have looked at this as one aspect in a very difficult exercise that we have had to carry out. The Government have been committed to cutting public expenditure and the education budget has had to take its share of it; and this is one way in which it is happening.

§ Lord PITT of HAMPSTEAD
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the fact that, because of the suggestion to charge a smaller fee to people from the EEC, it will be possible for a student from Martinique to come here and be educated at a cheaper rate than a student from St. Lucia, whereas in fact the Martinique 816 student, having been trained, will go back and use all the training he has received to aid France, while the St. Lucian would probably use his training to aid Britain?

§ Baroness YOUNG
My Lords, I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Pitt of Hampstead, that our proposals include, as before, the arrangements which have been made particularly, I think, for students from former British colonies to come and study through the Overseas Development Agency, and that is a separate exercise from the one that I am describing.