RHODESIA—ZIMBABWE: CONFERENCE ON ELECTIONS (Hansard, 24 May 1979)

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, we do not rule out any of the possible ways of bringing Rhodesia back to legality in circumstances which would command wide international acceptance and contribute to a peaceful solution. As the noble Lord is aware, it has not in the past proved possible to secure agreement among the parties on a basis for internationally supervised elections.

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
My Lords, would the noble Earl opposite give this House a direct answer as to whether Her Majesty's Government consider that the Fifth Principle has been fulfilled; that is, that the constitution—not the election, but the constitution—has been submitted to the Rhodesian people as a whole? Secondly, does his Answer suggest that Her Majesty's Government consider that the Patriotic Front has no further part to play in the future agreement in Rhodesia-Zimbabwe?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, Rhodesia has been subjected to elections, the results of which are known, and it is Her Majesty's Government's intention to try to build on the results of those elections. With regard to the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, as to whether the Patriotic Front has no more purpose (I think he said) in Rhodesia, or part to play in Rhodesia, it is my noble friend's intention that we should aim to return Rhodesia to legality and achieve the lifting of sanctions in the context of a wide international recognition. In that context, of course, the Patriotic Front has a part to play.

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
But, my Lords, would the noble Earl please 490 answer my first supplementary question? Do Her Majesty's Government consider that the Fifth Principle has been fulfilled; that is, the submission of the constitution to the people of Rhodesia as a whole—the constitution, not the election?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, it is our understanding that the election has taken place and was as a result of the conditions which obtained at the time. The result of that election is what we are trying to build on. What the noble Lord is concerned about, I think I am right in saying, is the fact that the Patriotic Front was not part of the transitional administration, and in that respect, of course, it was not possible to come to any agreement.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, does the noble Earl ever find himself in any intellectual difficulty in supporting law and order in this country—a major factor in the recent election—and, at the same time, supporting rebellion and rebels in Rhodesia?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I am always in perpetual intellectual difficulty when I try to answer questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg. Our whole purpose in this very sensitive area is to try to get a solution and build on what has happened, and the only way you can do that is by trying to get an internationally accepted situation. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, to realise, as I know he does, that this is a very difficult period of time and I would not wish to be pressed too far.

§ Lord WIGG
The point is, of course, my Lords, that I have always realised that it was a difficult problem and the Conservative Party have been converted to that point of view only in the last few days.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I think that is an extreme point of view, which is not exactly unusual to the noble Lord.

§ Baroness ELLES
My Lords, in considering the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, in relation to the constitution, is it not true that the leaders of all the parties who stood in the elections in Rhodesia were well aware of what they were standing for and that they supported the constitution? Parallel to that, could we not take the example 491 of Scotland where the referendum was on the question of the Scotland Act, where very few copies of that Act were available and where, no doubt, nine-tenths did not vote on the Scotland Act but answered the perfectly straight question in the referendum and were not expected to read the whole of the Scotland Act? This was a very fair parallel. Will my noble friend confirm that the Patriotic Front were asked to take part in the elections and refused and said that they would increase their efforts to disturb the peace while the elections took place?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I will not follow my noble friend along the fascinating path of comparison between Rhodesia and Scotland but I understand the point she made. She is wholly right in saying that the Patriotic Front were invited to take part in the elections but they had insisted on a dominant role in the Administration and control of the security forces during the transition. That was where the difficulty arose and that is why they did not take part.

§ Lord FLETCHER
My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the present Government are having any discussions—and, if so, what about—with the Rhodesian Patriotic Front?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, it is the present Government's intention to discuss as much as possible with all the countries and all the people concerned—and that will include the Patriotic Front.

§ Lord DERWENT
My Lords, does it serve any useful purpose day after day to raise this question while discussions are going on in Africa? Surely, everlasting debate in this House will not help the discussions.

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I have to say that I have a great deal of sympathy for my noble friend's view and I hope that he has a great deal of sympathy with what I have tried to say. In fact, we are at this moment in a situation of great delicacy. I would not wish anything that I should say or that any noble Lord should say to add to the problems there. The great problem is to try to get this situation resolved in as amicable and 492 internationally acceptable a way as possible.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, would the noble Earl confirm or correct the statement that the constitution reserves to the white population certain key posts for a period in the administration of the new Government?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is correct in saying that there are certain positions which may be held by white people in Rhodesia.

§ Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER
My Lords, may or must?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I should think—and I am subject to correction—that it might be the latter.

§ Lord PLUNKET
My Lords, will the Minister agree that rather than try to call the sort of conference which has been suggested and which might end like the Geneva Conference, it would be better to try to encourage the present leaders in Rhodesia to come to an accommodation with the external leaders?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, this is what the whole problem has been about for so long. It is this problem that my noble friend is endeavouring to solve at the moment. I hope that he will have the sympathy of the House in the exercise of this task.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, looking realistically at the future, and in view of the uncertain stability of the interim government because of the divisions within it and the disproportionate strength of Mr. Ian Smith, is not the only solution (if one is to be reached) to find a means by which there will be discussions not only within Zimbabwe but with the Patriotic Front and the front-line Governments?

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, I find myself in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that the only way to get effective results is by international agreement and that means by discussion.

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
My Lords, my question really has not been answered. I am still asking whether Her Majesty's 493 Government consider that the Fifth Principle has or has not been fulfilled. I would remind the noble Earl—

§ Lord DENHAM
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, has asked for clarification on a point. If he would just give my noble friend time to answer that, I think it is probably the feeling of the House that by that time Question Time will have gone on for long enough.

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
My Lords, I was going to try to help the noble Earl to understand the purport of my question by referring him—

Earl FERRERS
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Boyd went out to Rhodesia to see what happened and what was going on at the time. It is on the presentation of his report that the Government will take their view; and that will be published shortly.