§ 3.14 p.m.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will ensure that in future volunteers will be able to help in hospitals during emergencies so that patients are protected.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of HEALTH and SOCIAL SECURITY (Lord Wells-Pestell)My Lords, as your Lordships know, there is a long tradition of valuable work done by volunteers in the National Health Service, and I pay tribute to the contribution they 1653 have made in recent weeks. During the current disputes in the National Health Service, action became so serious in some places that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State told health authorities on 15th March that they might invite volunteers for an extended role when that was the only way of keeping essential services going. I regret to say that some authorities found it necessary to issue such invitations, and they met with excellent response. Looking to the future, we are concerned at what happened recently and the Government feel that the extended use of volunteers during industrial action should be undertaken when it would otherwise be impossible to maintain essential services.
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. Does he agree that patients are no part of an industrial dispute and should never become hostages? Is it not against all Christian feeling that one should he stopped from helping one's fellow man in need? Is the noble Lord not aware that some hospitals or local hospital authorities were frightened of calling in volunteers?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, as I have said many times in this House, we were quite aware of the situation and did not approve of many things that took place. An attempt was made to agree upon some guidelines which were originally issued by the Volunteer Centre and which made it perfectly clear what the volunteers should do in certain circumstances. When there was a difficulty between the people on strike and the needs of the hospital, there were negotiations. If those negotiations did not meet with the desired result, there were facilities by which the hospital and volunteers could get through direct to my right honourable friend. We are aware that from time to time there is need for volunteers and we shall do our best to see they give the help that is required.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, due to the very slow pace at which negotiations took place during the recent strikes, is it not a fact that many thousands of volunteers could have taken part very much earlier to the great benefit of the patients?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is not true to speak of very slow progress. A good deal was done in a comparatively short time. The noble Lord knows as well as I do that there was a reason why my right honourable friend the Secretary of State did not issue a call for volunteers; because we wanted to try to do it by persuasion rather than by taking action which would have exacerbated the situation.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, while fully recognising that arrangements were taking place on a local basis, and that is quite well understood on this side of the House, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that, where a robust attitude was taken locally, volunteers were warmly welcomed?
§ Baroness MASHAM of ILTONMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he thinks there could be a lasting policy agreed with all the parties, unions and volunteers, for emergency care, so that everyone knows where they are and the patients—who are, after all, the most important people in times of problems like this—will feel safeguarded and know there will be people coming in to help them?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, when there are local difficulties, by which I mean relating to a particular hospital, we are hoping that in the not too distant future we shall be able to work out a formula with all the parties concerned so they can deal with it on a local level—that is, a hospital level—immediately. When one is faced with a strike that spreads over the whole of the National Health Service, it is often difficult, as noble Lords will be aware, to have a system which will be accepted and acted upon by every group.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to say what contact there was with the British Red Cross and St. John's, who have people trained as volunteers; and were they very adequate in the last dispute?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the British Red Cross Society and St. John's Ambulance Brigade are organisations which, as I think everybody knows, rendered magnificent and invaluable service during the recent crisis, particularly 1655 in the maintainance of emergency ambulance services during the strikes. We cannot speak highly enough of the value of their contribution, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for enabling me to say that.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, in view of the fact that large numbers of extra volunteers came forward during the recent emergency, can the Government devise a means of retaining their services in times of non-emergency in order to relieve the heavy burdens still being placed on our nurses?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the running of hospitals is in the hands of local management, not in the hands of the Government or my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It is for local management to arrange these matters. Most hospitals have a number of volunteers, and when it is necessary to have more it is up to management to recruit them, and in many instances this has not been at all difficult. In the emergency which we recently faced 32 health districts used additional non-staff volunteers to help them with the essential services.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that having volunteers on hand, far from exacerbating the situation, might make the strikes easier to settle?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, having on hand volunteers who cannot get through the picket lines tends to make the situation worse.
§ Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURNMy Lords, when the Government are re-elected will my noble friend the Minister call a meeting with the various voluntary bodies to ensure that, if there is another occurrence similar to that which took place over the past two months, they will work together?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we have a number of plans which we propose to put into operation as soon as possible after 9th May.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, can the noble Lord enlarge upon what he said about volunteers not being able to get through picket lines? Is that not a very serious admission for a Minister of any Government to make? Should it not be possible for people to get through picket lines? Did not the Prime Minister himself say that?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, let us be realistic; let us face facts. Everyone in your Lordships' House knows that when there are picket lines in force sometimes people can get through them and sometimes they cannot. If the noble Lord looked at television he would have seen that that was the case regarding the lorry drivers' strike. When a situation of this kind arises in the hospitals we endeavour to have an arrangement with the unions concerned to the effect that in cases of emergency volunteers are allowed through the picket lines. In fact, this happened, and I have already mentioned that 32 health districts used additional non-staff volunteers in the emergency.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, may I point out to the Minister that that is selling the pass? People should always be allowed through picket lines. Picketing is the right peacefully to inform and persuade. If the present law is unenforceable, it should be changed; indeed, it should already have been changed.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the hospital workers on strike were on full pay while doing nothing, and does he not agree that, so long as they can be on strike on full pay, there is no possibility of breaking the strike?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, if the noble Lord's information is accurate, I would say that as I understand the situation the strikers have in fact returned to work.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, are the Government aware that, during he electricians' strike last November, the electricians at the West London Hospital not only shut down the place electrically but also took away the fuses, so that doctors had to work by lamp light to prepare for operations?