§ 2.46 p.m.
§ Lord GRIDLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government as a matter of urgency when they propose to reform the conditions of service of civil servants in order to protect the Government's ability to govern in a democratic society.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no such proposals at present. Civil servants are already subject to conditions of service which require them to serve loyally the Government of the day.
§ Lord GRIDLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that Answer, may I ask whether, in the present negotiations between Her Majesty's Government and the civil servants, attention has been drawn to the fact that the first duty of civil servants is to the State—or this country—before any gain they may hope to make for themselves out of the present negotiations? Secondly, as regards sensitive areas such as foreign affairs, defence and possibly taxation, should it not be a condition of their service that in no circumstances will they withdraw their service, when by doing so they might endanger the safety of this country?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I note carefully what the noble Lord has said and I should hope that the Civil Service would behave responsibly. I know that the sensitive areas which have been mentioned by the noble Lord have created difficulties, and I regret that. I, as spokesman for the Government, and my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection and the Minister of State for the Civil Service met the national staff side this morning to open substantive negotiations. We are anxious that we should bring these negotiations to a final conclusion. We told them that the Government would implement the pay research settlement being negotiated between the 1412 two sides in two stages: the first stage of 7 per cent. will be payable from 1st April 1979 and the final stage from 1st April 1980. The full pay research rate is to be paid in the second stage which will be used for pension purposes from 1st April 1979. The Government stand ready to continue the negotiations at any time. Therefore, we are now negotiating and I hope that we can achieve something.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of a report, at about 1 o'clock today, that the negotiations had broken down? Will the noble Lord comment on that? Does he agree that, however good the case of the Civil Service, selected strikes, carefully aimed at particular areas of Civil Service work are to be deplored—for example, the many ordinary rights of people in Scotland have been injured, as well as their purses, by the crippling of the Scottish courts of justice?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord and I entirely accept his point of view on the matter. I thought that I had informed noble Lords that we have been negotiating this morning. It is true that we have only just started negotiations. There are reports, I understand, of talks being withdrawn, but I am anxious that we can get on with this matter and there is no reason why we should not.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, does the noble Lord not agree that, on the question of the pay and conditions of civil servants there is an exceptional case—and all the more so in the light of the information which he has just given the House—for consultation with Opposition parties with a view to finding a common approach in circumstances where, in the last resort, the security of the State itself may be at stake?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I think that on behalf of the Government I must accept responsibility for negotiations with the Civil Service. I am anxious that the talks which have been interrupted (if I may use that term) will continue. It is in the interests of the Civil Service that it should have meaningful relations and discussions with the Government. Therefore, to bring in other people who are not in the Government would not be appropriate at this stage.
§ Lord ORR-EWING; My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Pay Research Unit Board was specifically set up so that people outside Government could express an opinion about recommended settlements and the actuarial basis on which they were justified? The noble Lord has announced to Parliament the recommendation of this morning's meeting. Is that to be submitted to the Pay Research Unit Board? Did that board meet to consider it before the noble Lord made his statement?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, of course, the Pay Research Unit Board has reported. The discussion that we are now having with the Civil Service unions is on how to apply pay research. When a final conclusion is reached there will certainly be a statement.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, surely, at present, hope is not enough; discussions are not enough. What is needed is action. If the present Government cannot govern, they had better go.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, that is not the right approach to this. A Right-Wing approach cannot be right in this case. I am rather surprised that the noble Baroness has said that. After all, we all want an honourable settlement, based on pay research findings.
§ Viscount TRENCHARDMy Lords, has the noble Lord brought the many apparently helpful statements in the document called Concordat—or nicknamed Concordat—to the attention of the union leaders with whom he has been negotiating? In particular I have in mind the paragraphs which suggest that maximum efforts must be taken to avoid the need for strike or industrial action in this kind of area; and also the paragraphs which say that agreements should be honoured—and I understand that the current agreement still has some way to go—before any industrial action takes place; and the points made about recourse to ballots and to arbitration before strike action. Can the noble Lord tell us whether there is any sign of those statements in the Concordat having any noticeable effect on those with whom he is negotiating?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, will remember that when I addressed the House on the White Paper I laid great emphasis on the need for civil servants and other trade unionists to bear in mind that strike action should be taken only in the last resort. At that time I deplored that there should be threatened strike action—and there was—before negotiations had started. Therefore, I very much agree with the noble Viscount.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, referring to the noble Lord's original Answer when he said that it was the duty of civil servants to serve loyally, can he tell the House whether all civil servants take an oath of loyalty when they commence work?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I do not think they specifically take an oath, but it is accepted that they should be loyal to the Government in power, which is quite right. I would expect that, whatever Government are in power.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, are civil servants classed as being on a par with the Armed Forces or, if I may use the phrase, are they on a more liberal par? Are they as tightly bound by oath as the members of the Armed Services or less tightly bound?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, no; and I think the noble Earl knows that.