HL Deb 19 March 1979 vol 399 cc862-6

2.42 p.m.

Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement about the report that pickets from the National Union of Public Employees are restricting the amount of blood collected from donors in South-East England; to confirm whether this report is true; and if so what effect it is having on blood stocks, and what action the Government are taking in the matter.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of HEALTH and SOCIAL SECURITY (Lord Wells-Pestell)

My Lords, there is no picketing at the South London Blood Transfusion Centre, which is responsible for collections from South-East England. Industrial action at the Centre was limited to two Mondays, and this reduced the number of collections. The present position is that NUPE are restricting the number of donors in any one session. Blood stocks, therefore, have been slightly reduced, but I know of no hospital which has complained that the reduction has gone below the safe level of supply. The unions have agreed to maintain a level of collection of blood which will continue to meet emergency Health Service requirements.

Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the life-giving value of the blood donor service, combined with the unconditional public spirit of the donors, makes a sharp contrast with the inhuman attack by a small group of workers on this service? Is he aware that his reply, indicating that the effect is relatively small, gives some reassurance, but can he say how it is that NUPE should be in a position to restrict this supply at all? After all, the operation of the service is carried out primarily by doctors and nurses. How is it that NUPE members are able to restrict?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I am able to confirm that there is a relatively small effect upon the supply of blood. But blood is collected by a number of teams that go out. Sometimes one team is on the hospital precincts; that is to say, there is a van, there is a doctor, there is a nurse and there are other members of the team. Donors can go along and something like 150 or more a day will use one of these collection vans. Where sessions are held on hospital premises, NUPE can interrupt service and, as I said, they did so for two days. Where the vans are not on hospital premises, that does not apply.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, are the Government prepared to accept a situation whereby NUPE are the arbiters of how much blood is, or is not, to be collected? It they are not prepared to accept that situation, what are the Government going to do about it?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, we are not at all happy. I have never pretended that I, or my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, have been in any way agreeable to what has taken place in our hospitals over the past few weeks. We have tried, with some measure of success, I think, by not exacerbating certain situations, to change the position, and I believe that we shall do so. The action by COHSE has now been stopped, and the action by NUPE happened for only two days.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that this is simply not a proper subject for industrial action, and the sooner that is made clear to the unions the better?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I entirely agree, and so does my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, and we have made that view quite clear to them.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, does restricting the supply of blood mean that would-be donors have their offers rejected? Have the Government studied the possible effect that that might have on future offers, and will the noble Lord convey to NUPE that whatever case they may or may not have is made infinitely worse in the public mind by resort to disgraceful tactics of this kind?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, it certainly means that a small number of people who volunteered to give blood have been prevented from doing so. I think that they understand the position in which the hospital finds itself, and the difficulties in which we in the Department find ourselves. We shall certainly take whatever steps we can to remedy this situation at the earliest possible opportunity.

Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one more question about the mechanics of it? The actual taking of the blood is done by doctors and nurses. If there is a NUPE member driving the van, is it not possible for the National Health Service to hire a van and let a hired van driver take the service out, take the nurses out, take the doctors out, take the beds out and so on, so that the service can be unimpeded? Will the noble Lord explain why it is that he does not take this emergency action to keep his service going?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, first, I should like noble Lords to bear in mind that there is not a shortage of blood for this purpose. It is nowhere near the level that could be described as unsafe. There are a number of blood banks that do not have the usual amount of blood, but it is still enough and more for their needs. Therefore, I think that my right honourable friend, and certainly the hospital managers, would not want to take some action which might be counterproductive and exacerbate the situation.

Lord KINNAIRD

My Lords, is the Minister aware—and may I beg him to ponder this question—that owing to present behaviour Great Britain, as a so-called civilised nation, is earning the contempt of Europe?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I would not presume to say that I know what Europe is thinking on this matter.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that there has been no case in any operating theatre where a surgeon has been short of a supply of blood because of any action by NUPE? Will he therefore reject a statement which was made in the Press recently, of one chief police officer who was on the operating table, and they had to call in local police to volunteer to give blood?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I am not in a position to reject it. I merely say to your Lordships that I am not aware of any such situation at any hospital. It may well be my job to find out. I hope the noble Baroness does not think that I come here without making the fullest possible inquiries.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, then does the Minister confirm that he is not able to assure the House that there has been no case of shortage? That is the question I am asking.

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, that is precisely what I said. I am not aware of any such case.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is it not clear from the events of the past week or two that if the nurses now get a larger pay rise than the members of NUPE the public will cheer very loudly indeed?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I think that the House would prefer me to confine myself to the Question which is before your Lordships.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, if some of the allegations which have been made are not refuted as a result of inquiries which might be necessary, may I ask my noble friend whether or not he will take advantage of the suggestion which has been made and ascertain those facts and make them known to your Lordships' House, so that we shall all be satisfied, whatever we may think about the right to strike? Nobody wishes to interfere with that principle, which is quite legal, but there are many things that we regard as objectionable. If that is the general position, will my noble friend institute the inquiries which have been suggested?

Lord WELLS-PESTELL

My Lords, I and my colleagues never come to the Dispatch Box without considering the Question well beforehand from every possible angle, and we try to bring to your Lordships the answers to every possible supplementary that your Lordships may decide to put. If, following the main Question, a question arises and I cannot answer it, I endeavour to find out what is the answer and to let the noble Lord know.