§ 3 p.m..
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the existing restraints that inhibit hospital authorities from contracting out their cleaning and maintenance services to private firms.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of HEALTH and SOCIAL SECURITY (Lord Wells-Pestell)My Lords, health authorities have discretion, within the financial resources available to them, to put this work out to contract.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, can my noble friend say what are the restraints that have prevented any of the hospital authorities from doing so hitherto? I speak subject to correction. Since the present situation has resulted in the closure of operating theatres and the depletion of blood banks, could not the hospital authorities be allowed the widest possible latitude in matters concerning the life and death of patients?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not aware that the hospitals are under any constraint at all in this particular matter. It so happens that at the present moment about 30 hospitals employ private contractors for cleaning purposes.
§ On the question of cost as between employing a private contractor and having the work done by hospital staff employed to do it, there is hardly any difference at all in cost, but there is one overriding factor. That is that, in the case of a contract, it is necessary to have it set out very clearly in the contract what is going to be done, and you cannot depart from that at a moment's notice. That can be done only by negotiation with the contracting firm; and, in a hospital, it is often necessary to change routines and methods at very short notice. But, as I say, there are 30 hospitals at present employing private contractors.
182§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, arising out of that reply, would my noble friend not agree that some recognition should be made of the marvellous work done by hundreds of young nurses who have literally kept the hospitals going by undertaking the heavy extra burdens imposed on them by the action of able-bodied people in the National Health Service who have decided to go slow?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, notwithstanding the fact that that question is, if I may say so, wide of the original Question asked, I think I have said in your Lordships' House on more than one occasion how indebted we are to the people who are rallying round at this particular time.
§ Lord SANDYSMy Lords, if these constraints upon the administration are very small, would the Government actively consider reviewing the situation so far as concerns the many hospitals which have been obliged to close their operating theatres and hence lengthen the lists of patients?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, if we may get back to it, the original Question asked what restraints were inhibiting hospital authorities from contracting out. What I am saying, and what I have said, is that I am not aware that there are any such restraints. It is entirely up to the hospitals themselves to decide which of the two methods they are going to use.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, would the noble Lord accept that, to the extent that hospital authorities do not contract out cleaning and maintenance services to the lowest bidder, the only satisfactory way of absorbing pay increases of the amounts now in contemplation is to insist on improvements in productivity, through which a given amount of work would be done by a reduced number of employees?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not aware of the way in which the noble Lord is using the word "maintenance"; but if he means maintenance in respect of building and engineering, I can say that between 25 and 30 per cent. of building and engineering maintenance in the National Health Service is in fact undertaken by private firms, amounting 183 to something like £40 million a year in cost. There are some very good reasons for using direct labour which have nothing to do with any political view. Much of the work on health buildings requires to be done immediately and there are special things that have to be done, and by employing people who are on the spot all the time it can very often be done more cheaply and more quickly.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, will the noble Lord convey to his right honourable friend the Minister, who is at present in Westminster Hospital, our very great sympathy with him, critical as we may be of him in a political sense? We wish him a speedy recovery; and we deplore the discriminatory action taken against him.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord, and I shall see that that is done.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, while warmly endorsing the remarks just made by the noble and learned Lord opposite, may I ask my noble friend whether he can say what active steps the Government are prepared to take to acquaint the hospital authorities with the facilities which are available to them, and to see that far wider use is made of them as soon as possible?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think I can say to your Lordships that it is not necessary to do that. The hospitals are well aware of the authority they have, they are well aware of the authority that the Department has, and they are well aware of the fact that they are entirely responsible for running the hospitals in their particular area.