§ 3.12 p.m.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will now terminate the 1606 role of the British National Oil Corporation as an adviser to the Government.
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, the Government are currently undertaking a complete review of the activities of the British National Oil Corporation, including its advisory role. It would be wrong for me to speculate on the outcome of this review.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, but I should like to ask whether the Government could bear in mind in their review that the BNOC was given a completely contradictory role? It was meant to be a thoroughly commercial company, on the one hand, and yet it had access to Government secrets as Government adviser, on the other hand. Should not that contradiction be examined very closely, especially in view of the presence on the BNOC Board of two members of the staff of the Department of Energy?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, we are sharply aware of that contradiction, and that is one of the reasons why my right honourable friend is undertaking the review.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, arising out of what the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, has said, is it not a fact that the BNOC's 51 per cent. participation does not give it an overriding role as regards policy decisions and it acts only as an adviser and is not concerned with regulating contracts? That, of course, is in the BNOC's annual report as a statement of fact.
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, the House will have noticed that there is a Motion down in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, to debate the BNOC, among other matters, next week, and I shall be replying to that point then.
§ Lord BALOGHMy Lords, is the Minister aware that every one of the noble Earl's questions has the implication of diminishing the revenue, increasing PSBR, increasing foreign profits, and burdening the balance of payments?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, there are many assumptions in the noble Lord's supplementary question with which the Government do not agree.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that most other countries which have a national oil company take great care to ensure that it cannot possibly influence the Government's regulatory role in giving licences? Can he comment on the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, that BNOC is whiter than white in this matter, inasmuch as it must assume that those civil servants on the Board of BNOC live in a kind of purdah and do not know what is going on?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, that is a little wide of the original Question, but it is certainly true that the Government have every confidence in the Department of Energy in acting as an adviser to it on these affairs.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, can the noble Earl say whether in the course of this review the Government will consider dispensing with the services of all these special advisers?—bearing in mind the experience of the previous Government, which did not seem to achieve very much success as a result of taking the advice of the so-called special advisers. Besides, they are not worth the money.
§ Lord TANLAWMy Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that, if he is not going to take expert advice from BNOC, he will not take expert advice solely from the commercial oil corporations?
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Earl mean that on no account is he prepared to take expert advice? Is that the general policy of this Government?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, during the little clash between the Cross 1608 Benches and Benches opposite, I missed the first part of the noble Lord's Question.
§ Lord WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, I shall repeat the question. Does the noble Earl mean that it is not the intention of the present Government to take any expert advice? Does he mean that it is far better to rely upon the strange whimsies which occur to noble Lords opposite, rather than to take any expert advice?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, the Government will take advice from all quarters—both expert and inexpert—including the noble Lord.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, why is it necessary for a Government with such talent, which resides on those Benches, to take expert advice? Would not that be superfluous?
The Earl of GOWRIEMy Lords, the Government have been taking advice on this subject for the last nine minutes.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, in view of the noble Earl's Question, can the Minister tell us whose advice it was which left farmers like myself in the South-West without any oil for our tractors?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that in the course of this review the Government will not consider handing back control of the North Sea to the multinational oil companies?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, I ask the Minister to answer it.
§ The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames)My Lords, my noble friend answered that it was a loaded question. I think that the Government at least, and perhaps the House as well, would benefit if we moved on to take some advice on some other subjects.