§ 2.50 p.m.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the fifth principle for agreement with the régime in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia has been fulfilled when the new constitution has been submitted to the white but not to the black electorate.
§ The FOREIGN SECRETARY and MINISTER for OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT (Lord Carrington)My Lords, the new constitution has not been submitted directly to the black electorate. My right honourable and noble friend Lord Boyd has given his judgment that the parties participating in the elections did so on the basis of the constitution. Mr. Drinkwater, QC, separately reached the same conclusion. The Government intend to build on what has been achieved to bring Rhodesia back to legality with the widest possible international recognition.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, and apologising for changing the Question and for any inconvenience that that has caused, may I ask whether he will answer directly the Question on the Order Paper: Does Her Majesty's Government accept or not accept that the constitution which has been devised in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia satisfies the fifth principle of being accepted by the population of Rhodesia as a whole?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, in common with all of us in this House hopes to see a peaceful settlement of the Rhodesia problem. There are very delicate consultations taking place this week. My noble friend Lord Harlech went yesterday to speak to the front-line presidents, and Mr. Derek Day is already in Salisbury speaking to Bishop Muzorewa. I hope that noble Lords on all sides of the House will understand if I do not go further today.
§ Viscount BOYD of MERTONMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend if he accepts that, having watched the Rhodesia elections very carefully, being convinced that they were fair and as free as possible and knowing that the parties, both black and white, campaigned under the banner of the new constitution, I think he has given the wisest possible answer in the present circumstances?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend and grateful to him and his colleagues for his report.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the fact that 65 per cent. of the black electorate voted might indicate that they were not totally dissatisfied with the constitution?
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, on the contrary, does the noble Lord not agree that the size of the turnout has not necessarily any bearing at all on the support of the electorate for the arrangements under which it was made? In this connection, did the noble Lord see the ITN poll on the elections which have just been held for the European Parliament which showed that of those who abstained only 25 per cent. did so because they were in disagreement with the arrangements for our entry into Europe?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, there are some who think that and others who do not.
§ Lord CHITNISMy Lords, does the noble Lord know what facilities were afforded to those who sought to campaign against voting in the election on the grounds that to do so might be taken as signifying their acceptance of the constitutional settlement?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, if the noble Lord would like to put down a Question on that I will seek to answer it.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, can my noble friend say how many African countries that object to Bishop Muzorewa have elections themselves?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, not without notice.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, not wishing to prejudice the present discussions, may I ask whether the noble Lord has noted the statement of President Carter in the USA in which he said that, while there was a majority election, the constitution was only submitted in a referendum to the whites and that the majority of the election was not about the constitution?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, I have noticed what the President said in what was a judicial determination. I hope that the noble Lord also read the entire statement that the President made, because he also said that he thought the elections were reasonably and fairly conducted and that there has been great progress made in Rhodesia. Equally I have had conversations in the last few weeks with Mr. Vance, and I have no doubt that the American Administration is supporting the proposals and the action that Her Majesty's Government are now taking.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, while entirely understanding the delicacy of the present situation and not wishing in any way to embarrass the noble Lord, may we take it that Her Majesty's Government hope to have an improved constitution in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government hope for a settlement which has the widest possible international recognition.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a final supplementary question? Would he agree that there is some parallel between the situation in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia today and that which existed when his noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel put his constitution to the population of Rhodesia? Is there not a difference between voting under a constitution which is the only constitution you can vote under and voting for a constitution?
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, there was a difference in the test of acceptability. One was an election and the other was not. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, has read the 541 reports of my noble friend Lord Boyd and also of Mr. Drinkwater. I think they have a bearing on this subject.