HL Deb 25 July 1979 vol 401 cc1935-8

3.16 p.m.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON rose to move, That the draft order, laid before the House on 10th July, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) (Amendment) Order 1979 be considered. The British Railways Board, as well as operating a substantial fleet of passenger ships, also operates hovercraft through its subsidiary company, British Rail Hovercraft Limited, on two routes across the English Channel. Events in recent years—in particular growing misbehaviour from football supporters travelling to and from Europe—have led the Railways Board to the view that it needs to strengthen its position in dealing with offences committed on its ships and hovercraft.

There is at present no comprehensive set of by-laws governing the Railways Board's ships and hovercraft comparable with the by-laws governing its railway undertaking. The only by-laws in operation are the remnants of those made by the pre-nationalisation railway companies, and they apply only to the Board's ferries. At present there are no by-laws relating to hovercraft. Accordingly, the Board proposes to make a set of joint by-laws, applicable to both their ships and hover-craft, covering such matters as travelling without a ticket, offensive behaviour, the conveyance of animals and so on.

The Railways Board has the power, under Section 67(2) of the Transport Act 1962, to make by-laws, subject to ministerial agreement, for ships which it operates, and paragraph 4(5) of Schedule 16 to the Transport Act 1968 extends this power to ships operated by the Board's subsidiary companies. However, the Board has no similar powers to make hovercraft by-laws. To extend their by-law-making powers to hovercraft, the Board needs an Order-in-Council made under Section 1(1)(h) of the Hovercraft Act 1968; and your Lordships have before you a draft of such an order, which must, by virtue of Section 1(4) of the 1968 Act, be approved by an Affirmative Resolution of each House before going to the Privy Council for ratification. This order seeks to amend the Hovercraft (Application of Enactments) Order 1972 by adding to it a reference to Section 67(2) of the Transport Act 1962 and to paragraph 4(5) of Schedule 16 to the Transport Act 1968, thus extending to hovercraft the Board's power to make shipping by-laws.

I think it is important to assist the Railways Board to deal effectively with offences of the kind to which its proposed shipping and hovercraft by-laws are intended to apply. And I think that there are strong arguments in favour of the Board's proposal to introduce a joint set of by-laws for ships and hovercraft: the general principle that the Board's powers in relation to ships and hovercraft should be the same has been conceded in earlier legislation. Moreover, there would be practical advantages in having identical rules governing traffic on the two types of craft. Extension of the Board's by-law making powers to hovercraft is an essential first step in the introduction of a joint set of by-laws for ships and hovercraft.

If this Order in Council is approved, the next step will be for the Board in due course to submit its draft by-laws to the Minister of Transport for his agreement. I will, of course, then place a copy of the draft hovercraft by-laws in the Library of this House. In my view, this is a sensible and, I hope, uncontroversial measure which will enable the Board to introduce a comprehensive set of by-laws covering a range of minor offences, comparable with the by-laws which the Board already has for the railways. Accordingly, my Lords, I ask for your approval of the draft Order in Council now before you.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 10th July, be approved.—(Lord Mowbray and Stourton.)

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, on this side of the House, we can join with the noble Lord and tell him that his hopes are quite right, and we have no objection whatsoever to this order. We deplore the reasons and the behaviour of some people which have made it necessary to consider strengthening the by-laws. We think it is eminently sensible that ships and hover-craft should be treated alike, and we raise no objection whatever.

Baroness PHILLIPS

My Lords, I am in no way against the order, because, as my noble friend has just said, it is absolutely essential, but I find it very strange that there is a need to embody non-payment of fare. I am not clear how you can actually get on a hovercraft without having paid your fare. It is not like an Underground train. I wonder whether that is a little unnecessary in this instance.

Lord HAWKE

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he can say what happens to hovercraft which are not owned by the Railways Board? Do they have by-laws already? Is this to apply to them, or are they to have new by-laws?

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, may I ask another question? As my noble friend knows, hovercraft are treated in law partly as ships and partly as aircraft. Is it the intention of the Railways Board, in making these by-laws, to consult in advance the Civil Aviation Authority so as to secure that there is no clash between the two jurisdictions?

Lord INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend one question before he replies generally? Can he say whether the British Transport police are entirely happy with these additional responsibilities which Parliament appears to be laying upon them? Also, will he bear in mind that the responsibilities of the transport police, when they start going to sea, are really very complicated?—because you can clash with the powers of the captain of the ship; you can be in our territorial waters; you can he on the high seas, and you are in French territorial waters before you get to the other side and can get rid of all your troublesome football supporters.

3.23 p.m.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I must thank your Lordships for the general welcome to this order, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman. I have to confess that I am totally bowled over by the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, about how you get on a hovercraft without buying a ticket. In my wisdom, I never thought of asking that simple question.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

My Lords, may I help on that? You get on with a car or a caravan. It is done quite often.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Paget, is very wise. I am told that this is a matter which can be considered when the by-law regulations themselves are considered. Ticket frauds do occur, so this does happen. I will write to the noble Baroness when I have more information.

Baroness PHILLIPS

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. I am not in favour of ticket frauds.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, I would never have suggested that the noble Baroness would be in favour of such a thing. The answer to my noble friend Lord Hawke is, no. This is not applying to other companies; it is purely a British Railways matter. British Railways have to have this set of regulations in their by-laws, and it is purely for them at this moment. My noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked about the Civil Aviation Authority being consulted. At the moment, I have no information on this point. I shall have to find out and write to my noble friend. I do not believe that it has been considered at the moment.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

It should be.

Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTON

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Inglewood asked about the transport police. My information is that the transport police wish to have these regulations. They will strengthen their hand. I hope that I have replied to the questions that I can answer. I apologise for those that I cannot answer, but I will let noble Lords know the answers in due course.

On Question, Motion agreed to.