APPROPRIATION (No. 2) (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1979

HL Deb 24 July 1979 vol 401 cc1862-74

5.23 p.m.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1979, which was laid before the House on 4th July, 1979, be approved. The order is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule I to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. The main purpose of the order is to appropriate the balance of the 1979–80 main Estimates, the sum on account having been appropriated in March this year. The order also appropriates a token amount arising from an Excess Vote for the financial year 1977–78.

Anyone moving legislation that is both complex and important and yet not susceptible of amendment is in something of a dilemma. One can either deal with the matter in detail and incur your Lordships' displeasure by boring them by the length of his speech or he can deal with them briefly, allowing matters to arise in the course of subsequent debate to which he can address himself in reply, and be accused of being superficial in his approach. I have already trespassed in the past on your Lordships' patience beyond the time thought agreeable; I shall therefore on this occasion take the alternative risk and deal with what I regard as the salient points, leaving it to your Lordships to bring to the attention of the House, and to my own, the matters which are felt to be most important.

The total of the main Estimates provision for 1979–80, including the sum already voted on account, is £1,642 million or some £119 million more than the total Estimates provision, including supplementaries, for 1978–79. Details of he provisions sought are set out in the main Estimates for Northern Ireland departments, copies of which are available in the Library. The presentation of the main Estimates volume has been altered from previous years. First, each Vote is either fully cash limited or completely exempt from cash limits control. Secondly, the provision being sought for 1979–80 includes an element to reflect estimated pay and price changes occurring during the year.

The largest increase over 1978–79 is that of £37 million in Class X Vote 3, family benefits. This results from the higher rates of child benefit which have been payable from April 1979. In Class IX Vote 1, health and personal social services, an increase of £30 million is sought over last year's figure. The additional funds will be used to cover pay and price increases, and to finance further developments necessary as a result of demographic and other factors.

For the housing services, Class V Vote 1, an extra £19 million is being sought. Increases in the grant to the Housing Executive and in the recoupment of its expenditure on the renovation of private sector dwellings, account for some £15 million. The balance of £4 million is to be made available to housing associations in anticipation of growth in their activities. Class II Vote 5, functioning of the labour market, seeks £64 million compared with £41 million last year. Technical accounting adjustments account for £15 million of this increase, and of the balance £6 million will be used by Enterprise Ulster and the Youth Opportunities Programme.

The largest decrease is in Class I Vote 2, agricultural support, where £51 million less than in 1978–79 is being asked for. This is because the 1979–80 provision needed for the Meat Industry Employment Scheme, aid to the milk industry and feed price allowances for pig, poultry and egg production schemes is not included. It will be sought later in the year, however, and the reduced figure does not, therefore, reflect any change in Her Majesty's Government's commitment to the agricultural industry.

There is an excess Vote amounting to £10 on the Estimates for 1977–78. Details are set out in the Statement of Excess, copies of which are in the Library. The excess Vote has been considered by the Public Accounts Committee, which has recommended that the necessary sum be made available. To a layman, £10 seems to be a remarkably small deviation from the intended target. The provision in this order will enable most existing services to be continued at a level similar to last year.

An appropriation order contains within it material that affects every aspect of Government activity in the Province of Northern Ireland other than that undertaken specifically by the Northern Ireland Office itself. It covers, therefore, a very wide field the whole of which was under scrutiny in another place and, indeed, until a latish hour this morning. If I was to deal even briefly with each relevant subject I should detain your Lordships long beyond the point of endurance. As I indicated at the beginning of this debate, I have instead sought to pick out only a few matters in a short introduction in order to give an opportunity to your Lordships to raise matters to which you attach particular importance. Of some of these I have already received advance notice, and I am grateful to those noble Lords who have thus assisted me to give replies that will be both full and, I hope, satisfactory. I commend this order to your Lordships. I beg to move.

Moved, That the order, laid before the House on 4th July, be approved.—(Lord Elton.)

5.29 p.m.

Lord BLEASE

My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for explaining the effects of this order. At the outset of my remarks, I wish to indicate support for the proposed financial provisions contained in the order. At the same time, I must express regret that, after almost seven years of the direct rule form of government over the affairs of the Province, we as a community have failed to achieve the establishment of a devolved assembly. When I speak of a devolved assembly, I mean a democratically elected devolved assembly with full, vigorous, positive and constructive participation by representatives of both parts of the Northern Ireland community.

The reason I mention at this time the issue of an elected regional assembly is that I feel a debate on this important order, and the crucial financial implications involved, could be of great effect and indeed all round benefit if it was being considered at greater length and against the immediate full backcloth of regional accountability and consensus. I am stating this view but in no way blaming the present Conservative Government, nor am I accusing the previous Labour Administration for the impasse. I am not blaming any particular individuals, but I fear that the basic language of party politics in Northern Ireland is still influenced by the political rhetoric of 10, 20—some even say 300—years ago. I think that recent outbursts would almost underline the last statement.

The politics of fear, hate, bigotry, of sectarianism and of division cannot be in the best interests of any of the people of Northern Ireland, especially considering the future for our children. For far too long, intelligent and decent people in Northern Ireland have been drawn away from direct political involvement. Sadly, they have left the issues of government to the politicians. Whatever may be the reasons or the excuses for this, it is totally unfair to the politicians for people to withdraw from active help in the resolution of political issues and then to blame the politicians when things go wrong. We have yet to learn that a healthy political system requires the active interest and co-operation of all thinking citizens.

The order before us deals with the authorisation of the financial provisions under 48 different votes and 12 classifications or departmental categories, as the Minister indicated in the debate in another place last evening—or should I say this morning?—which lasted for eight and a half hours. I shall wait with interest to read the outcome of that debate in Hansard. As the Minister has said, in a debate such as this, I think it would, in accordance with the practices and procedures of this House, be unwise of me, to attempt to deal with anything more than the broad outline or a couple of general matters.

I think the order before us must be considered against the background of the £35 million cut in Government expenditure in the Province and against the continuing inflation. One must stress the very serious nature of the economic and social outlook for the people of the Province and the tragically high unemployment rate—a rate that is twice that of the United Kingdom as a whole. In some parts of the Province male unemployment is as high as 30 per cent.

Perhaps the Minister may indicate to us something of the nature of the Statement made in the other place yesterday in reply to a Question concerning the very important issue of Harland and Wolff. I have had only a glance at the Statement, but I think it has serious consequences for the workers of Harland and Wolff, and perhaps the Minister could enlarge upon it. If my interpretation of the document is correct, it calls upon the workers, the management and the Government immediately to get together and ensure that the great shipyard of Harland and Wolff is maintained and made competitive in some way. I feel sure that the workers of that company, given encouragement, will rise to the need for competitiveness and production.

There is no doubt that continuing violence and terrorism have increased the difficulties of overcoming the Provinces' grave structural economic problems and geographical disadvantages. We have found through the years that Northern Ireland has benefited from the carefully blended dynamic of public enterprise and finance and private initiative and entrepreneurial skills. Management and trade unions, together with the Government, have enabled the Province to surmount terrible industrial, commercial and social difficulties. I would ask this House to listen carefully to these words which I quote: Any Government in the next few years must face the possibility that lengthening dole queues will be an important element in the pattern of violence in the Province". Those are not my words: they are the words of warning and of concern voiced by the late Mr. Airey Neave, when he spoke in another place at column 873 on 7th July 1978, when a similar order on Northern Ireland was being debated.

I would ask the Minister what immediate hopes he and his Government may have for shortening the persistent long dole queues in Northern Ireland. Can the Minister dispel the fears that are already mounting daily in the Province that unemployment could be as high as 100,000 by January next? That is an increase of something like 40,000 over the next six months. Could he indicate to us how the cuts will affect employment in the various sectors? What are likely to be the levels of unemployment in teaching, in hospitals, the public service, public transport and the manufacturing sectors? I realise that the Minister may not have these figures easily to hand, but I am sure he is aware, as I am, of the concern expressed at all levels by workers and other persons throughout the Province. I have been inundated with requests for information about the present situation and, as I indicated, during a debate here some 14 days ago, there is already a conference arranged by the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to consider the whole aspect of the Government's policy.

I should also like the Minister to be able to deny that there has been a considerable reduction in the numbers being recruited for industrial training and retraining. If I may again quote the late Mr. Airey Neave—because I believe he spoke with great knowledge and understanding of the position—he said this at column 874 in the same debate: The attack on unemployment seems to need an overall strategic plan, and I am unclear whether that exists now". Those were his words. He also said in the same column: we want to know a good deal more about the Government's plans for job creation". I would re-echo those words and hope that the Minister may be able to dispel some of our worst fears about the immediate outlook for employment in Northern Ireland.

I should now like to turn to two aspects of educational policy. One aspect is the action on the Astin Committee Report on the reform of school management. The other concerns Professor Nesbitt's committee on services for adults. To take first the Astin Report on the reform of school management in Northern Ireland, this was a committee set up under the chairmanship of Professor Astin and was one of a number of working parties set up by the Labour Administration in 1977, when a decision was taken to introduce comprehensive education. But, while the other working parties were intended to prepare the way for comprehensives, the Astin Committee had a much wider brief. I think I am right in saying that the prospective change to comprehensives was seen as an opportunity of reviewing the working and composition of school management on the same central lines as the Taylor Committee in England and Wales. Now, of course, the movement towards the comprehensives has been halted and the reports of all the working parties rendered somewhat irrelevant, at least in the short term. However, there is a great danger that, just as the pre-comprehensive reports have come to nothing, the Astin Report will similarly be pigeon-holed. That is the fear expressed by many people concerned in the teaching profession and by parents in the Province. That would be very sad, because reform is very necessary, and indeed essential, if the school system, on both the State and the Catholic sides, is to be given a more representative and informed base in local school management.

The main recommendation of the Astin Report was that all schools in the State sector and in the Catholic maintained sector, which receives more than 90 per cent. of its running costs from the State, should include four elements on their governing bodies—representatives of the local education authority, of parents, of teachers and of Church trustees. The Committee made two alternative recommendations. One said that, as a first choice, there should be equal representation of these four elements, with 25 per cent. representation from each. The other recommendation, which accepted the difficulties of achieving this by agreement, proposed that no interest should have more than 40 per cent. of the membership.

The present composition of the boards, whose main function is to appoint teachers, has constantly been attacked by the trade unions who, quite rightly, resent the heavy clerical influence. I know that the Minister has already said publicly that he wishes to consult and to have the advice of parents and teachers concerning education matters in the Province. Here, I suggest, is a report which stresses the importance of parent representation, as well as teacher representation, on school management committees. May I ask the noble Lord what action has been taken to implement the recommendations of the Astin Report?

Concerning Professor Nesbitt's committee on adult services, can the Minister indicate when the report will be completed and whether the findings will be made public? I note that there is a great deal of interest in the work of this committee, and many are concerned that educational and career guidance should be promoted and developed according to the needs of the Province.

I wish now to mention matters concerning the maintenance and future development of some of the public and voluntary bodies which are at present operating in Northern Ireland. It is true that there have been established a number of statutory bodies which are woven into the administrative fabric and other aspects of public life in the Province. Recently, some of these have been unfairly attacked in an ideological manner. While I agree that some form of continual review of the role, work, effectiveness and attendance of members of these bodies may be necessary, in the absence of a devolved assembly, I should consider it a retrograde step for a number of reasons if moves were made to limit the work or the number of these public bodies. Out of a long but not exclusive list, there are two such bodies which are likely to have an increased workload, and I suggest that every encouragement and assistance should be given by the Government so that those bodies are able adequately to carry out their appropriate services. The two bodies to which I refer are the Fair Employment Agency and the Labour Relations Agency. Whatever may have been the necessity for the services of the two bodies in the past, the requirements brought about by the sweeping changes in the labour market will make critical demands on their impartiality, experience and expertise. I realise that I am raising a number of matters about which I was, unfortunately, unable to get in touch with the Minister. I shall therefore understand if he is unable to give me forthright answers from the Dispatch Box on these issues. But I hope that he will take note of them and give them due consideration.

My attention has been drawn to an anomaly concerning the method of payment of retirement pensions to persons in Northern Ireland. It appears that in Great Britain a retired person may have his State retirement pension paid monthly through a banker's order. In Northern Ireland, this provision is available only on a quarterly payment basis. I cannot understand the reason for this restricted facility, and why the same payment method should not be available to all persons in the United Kingdom. As I said, I was unable to contact the department responsible, and will wait for the Minister to make appropriate inquiries concerning these points.

As the Minister said, the order deals with votes for a number of departments, under various headings. From the manner in which the Minister put these forward, it would appear that there has been a substantial increase, but, in my view, these are really cuts in public expenditure. While they are all particularly important, I want to single out one, which is in Class XI, Vote 7. It concerns expenditure on the Central Secretariat, including the expenses of Information Services and a grant in aid. I want to take the opportunity to commend—I want to use modest words; the word "praise" is too grandiose—the efforts of the Information Services provided by the Northern Ireland Government Office. There has been a tremendous improvement in the manner in which information is now made available to the public. It is much more acceptable in terms of the needs of a province which does not have information readily available through local representatives, in the sense that we had during the Stormont parliamentary period.

It is in this connection that I want to make my final comment. In my opening remarks, I referred to the impasse reached ill achieving new and positive approaches to political thinking in Northern Ireland. There is no doubt about the depressing aspect of the sterility of political debate. As a society, we have had to face tremendous difficulties. Working people, management and men, have demonstrated that we have the ability to cope with great economic and technological change in agriculture, in textiles, in engineering and in modern industrial construction, yet it is apparent that we cannot adjust to the realities of current political circumstances. I say "apparent", because there are signs that the community in general displays more flexibility and more pragmatism in dealing with issues, than do its elected leaders.

I believe that the institutions designed to provide for industrial and social consensus have proved immensely valuable in the promotion of constructive approaches to many industrial and community problems. I am thinking of the Economic Council, along with other statutory bodies on which management, men and Government get together and try to work out solutions to many problems. I believe that there is a need for a new forum of political public information and discussion that is neutral, independent, objective, constructive and, above all, forward-looking. Such a forum could be supplied by the establishment of a Northern Ireland Institute of Public Affairs. Even in these dark days of economic stringency and financial constraints, perhaps the Minister may consider grant-aiding such a body. I believe that the monies would be well spent in dispelling ignorance and distrust, in overcoming black propaganda and in creating new political horizons in the Province. My Lords, I support the order before us today.

5.49 p.m.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I think that all your Lordships will be indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Blease, for the way in which he has taken this order. I must say that he has almost given me indigestion with the concentration of his inquiry. I regarded what he was putting before me as a sack of grain to be planted, but I find that it has been threshed already and almost everything that he put forward was a request for information, or an offering of either condemnation or approval. I shall do my best to keep level with this pressure of interest.

I take well the noble Lord's introductory point. How much better, he said, would it have been had we been discussing these matters in the context of an elected, democratic and devolved Government in Northern Ireland. Like the noble Lord, at times I wonder when it was that the clock stopped and, like him, I hope that we can bang it just the right amount on the side to start it ticking again without knocking it over. The great thing is not to allow frustration to give too much strength to the blow. I said in my first speech from this Box what I fear I shall say often again: that the greatest danger we face is too much haste. However, I take the noble Lord's point and I share his impatience that things may move. He can rest assured that we are doing all that we can.

The noble Lord went on to refer to a number of matters. He said that we were conducting this debate in the context of cuts amounting to £35 million in the Northern Ireland account and in the context of inflation, and that he was expecting a very large increase in inflation. I am not in the business of making predictions in this field, and I shall say this again when we look at Harland and Wolff. All I can say is that I believe that the impact in the Province will be less acute than the noble Lord supposes. When the changes in taxation have worked through, I think that they will have the effect of reducing further that impact. We are not complacent. We are not as frightened as many people are by this problem. The reason for us not being so frightened is not that we are hard-faced or hard-hearted but that we believe that the outcome, while it will obviously be difficult, will not be so difficult as many people suppose. I cannot put a figure on this, and I do not think that the noble Lord expects me to do so.

There are one or two matters upon which I shall write to the noble Lord. One of them relates to the numbers coming in for training and re-training. I should know the precise figure, but I cannot give it off-the-cuff to the noble Lord. In the educational field, the noble Lord went on to refer to the Astin report. That report is not a dead letter. It has been published, and comments on it are invited from all interested bodies. Those comments will be collected, collated and considered by me. Until I have had them, it would be unwise of me to give an opinion on any aspect of the contents of the report.

Lord BLEASE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what methods were used to distribute that document and asking for the appropriate information to be sent back? How wide was that distribution?

Lord ELTON

My Lords, if copies of the report have not already reached all those to whom they should be addressed, they will do so in the next few days. This is not a hole-in-the-corner operation. It would be a great waste of Government funds to publish a document, to invite comments on it and then to keep it dark. If the noble Lord is aware of cases where they have not been received I should be grateful if he would draw my attention to them.

The noble Lord then went on to refer to the Nesbitt Committee. The subject of this inquiry is another one to which the department will be paying close attention. I think that the noble Lord's concern throughout what he said was that, as a result of the change in the policy of the Government—in not requiring educational and library boards to put forward schemes for reorganisation—a great deal of preparatory work would be thrown out of the window.

There are two things which make that not quite the case. One is that a number of committees—and the Astin Committee is the prime example—have done work which is relevant, can be of use and will not be snuffed out. The Dickson Committee is another organisation to which the noble Lord did not refer where progress has been made; and where it remains relevant, its work will be completed. The other is that, contrary to what appears to be the impression of many people in the Province, at no stage have either I, or the Secretary of State or the Government said that comprehensive reorganisation may not take place. We have only said that there is no requirement for it to take place. I believe that some schemes will come forward, and I take this opportunity, gladly, of saying that I shall not allow any doctrinaire assumptions of my own to come between me and the question of whether the scheme is acceptable to the people who are involved in it.

The noble Lord then went on to deal with what is referred to in some circles as the "Quango shooting season". This species, he feels, is more adapted to the pastures of the Province than it is to those of the mainland. I am aware that there are quasi-autonomous non-governmental bodies which perform useful functions. Indeed, as the beaters go through the thickets driving them into the open, one discovers characteristics of which one had not been aware. Naturally, we are still bent upon reducing expensive and unnecessary operations, but we are not bent upon eliminating useful or essential ones, and in some cases the noble Lord will find that bodies which he expects to be knocked on the head have in fact been amalgamated so that a number of functions can be performed by one body. However, it would be impolitic of me to make a further statement because people will start guessing at the category into which their own body will fall before we have sufficiently reviewed the matter.

I do not know the answer to the question which the noble Lord asked about the payment of pensions, but he was kind enough to say that he would be happy for me to write to him. I shall inquire into the matter and write to the noble Lord. I was glad to receive from such an authoritative source commendation of the work of officials and of all those concerned in the distribution of information. The other half of the struggle that is going on regarding the collection of secret information is the dissemination of public information. This is reassuring, but again Her Majesty's Government are not complacent.

The noble Lord then said, as I suspected he might, that the examples which I had chosen added up to an increase, not a decrease. The main Estimates provision is £1,641,560,000 compared with a total estimates provision in 1978–79 of £1,522,163,550. That is the comparison for which the noble Lord asked. However, when we are speaking about cuts, we are speaking about cuts in planned expenditure. We came in to find expenditure on an accelerating curve. We realised that this would carry us into such stratospheric levels that we should be unable to breathe. Therefore we have had to reverse the process. And, as always, we have an unpleasant sensation as we go over the top of the curve. However, it does not mean that the level of expenditure at one point in time is going to be reduced below that of the immediately preceding point in time.

The noble Lord concluded—and again I must say that it was a very agreeable and polished speech—after so many questions, almost all of them constructive, with a constructive suggestion about an Institute of Public Affairs. That is something which clearly wants to be looked at. Not only shall I look at it myself but I shall see that those of my colleagues who would be most closely concerned with such a project take the idea on board. What the result of that consideration will be I do not know.

I am grateful to noble Lords for the patience with which they have listened to this disquisition. The order is not capable of amendment. I commend it, therefore, as it stands to your Lordships.