HL Deb 19 July 1979 vol 401 cc1573-7

6.53 p.m.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Elton) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 2nd July, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this order has already been spoken to. The differences between the drafting of this order and that which we have just approved are technical in nature. The effects are the same. Therefore, I shall formally move the order. As I understand that noble Lords may have questions, this will give them an opportunity to raise them now. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 2nd July, be approved.—(Lord Elton.)

Lord BLEASE

My Lords, I join with my noble friend Lord Melchett in welcoming the very lucid and explicit way in which the noble Viscount. Lord Trenchard, dealt with the redundancy payments schemes, as provided for in these amendment orders. I believe that the provisions of this scheme may help to alleviate some of the human problems arising from the long-term aspects of unemployment in Harland and Wolff's shipyard in Belfast. However, as my noble friend Lord Melchett has indicated, there is considerable concern among the staff and manual workers in various sections of Harland and Wolff about the operation of the present scheme.

As the noble Viscount has already indicated, a number of anomalies have emerged in operating the scheme. My attention has been drawn to a grossly unfair situation concerning a group of 45 Harland and Wolff employees, who represent staff and manual workers. They were encouraged to opt for early retirement and they did so before realising that the redundancy payments which they would receive from the scheme would be offset against the payments to which they considered they were entitled from Harland and Wolff's contributory pension scheme. These 45 persons had had long periods of service with Harland and Wolff and had contributed a considerable amount from their salaries and wages to the pension fund scheme.

I am informed by one of the trade unions representing some of these workers that this group of 45 persons lost something like £137,500, or approximately £3,500 per employee, by opting for early retirement under the existing redundancy payments scheme arrangements. I am also informed that the company have had discussions with the employees concerned but that they are unable to do anything about it because of the terms under which the scheme has been drawn up. I feel, therefore, that the scheme, as at present operated, is unfair. It penalises long service employees. Also, it discourages those who may wish to opt for early retirement. While I do not expect a specific reply from the Minister this evening, I should be glad if he would undertake to review and examine this particular problem.

My noble friend Lord Melchett said that there may be a Statement next week about employment in the shipbuilding industry. That Statement will probably relate to the situation in Great Britain and will not include Northern Ireland. I should like to take this opportunity to ask that there should also be some consideration of the Northern Ireland situation as it pertains to Harland and Wolff. Harland and Wolff is one of the largest and most modern shipyards in the world. It has an excellent engine works, which is conveniently situated for the whole complex.

However necessary the redundancy payments may be, I consider that a more positive means may have to be implemented to tackle the present needs and the future developments for employment in the Belfast shipyard. Therefore I welcome the attention which has already been given by the Secretary of State, Mr. Humphrey Atkins, to the particular problem of unemployment in Northern Ireland. He dealt with the specific problem of Harland and Wolff in a statement on 21st June last, and I quote from that statement which was made at the inauguration of the Lord Mayor of Belfast. Mr. Atkins said: I am hopeful that it will be possible soon to confirm that the latest ferry order—the fourth from the British Rail Scalink to Harland and Wolff—has been approved by the EEC. But orders won are only the start of the story. They end with efficient production and prompt delivery to the customer, and I hone that everybody in the two companies "— he had referred earlier to Short Brothers and Harland and Wolff— management and workforce alike, will spare no effort to achieve this. We all know of the severity of the problems facing shipbuilders throughout the world in the current recession but it will be obvious that there are limits to the assistance which governments can afford to give. The shipbuilding industry in the United Kingdom and Europe generally is in for a period of contraction which affects Harland and Wolff as much as anyone. Although I fully recognise the difficulties under which the yard has operated. I must stress that losses of the order incurred in 1978 did reflect a significant decline in productivity and performance from the yard, a problem to which both management and workforce, I am sure, will seriously and urgently address themselves ". On the following day, 22nd June, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr. Giles Shaw, met a deputation from the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions to discuss employment problems and the future prospects for Harland and Wolff. A statement issued after that meeting indicates that the Minister said that the future of the shipyard would be considered in the context of the overall review of the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry which is currently under way. However the future level of Government assistance would depend on an improved performance on the part of everyone at Harland and Wolff—management, trade unions and the workforce. In particular, however, the Minister emphasised that there must be a rapid improvement in productivity if the yard is to have a viable future. He also assured the deputation that he and the officials of the Department of Commerce would continue to do everything possible to seek further orders for the shipyard and would also encourage further diversification at the yard.

I certainly do not disagree with those noble sentiments. It is important that management and men should get together to make sure that the yard is viable, but I am concerned that words have been spoken about the necessity for competitiveness when seeking new markets and having the yard become viable. I am concerned that it should not be left simply in a vacuum situation. I feel that things will not just happen. When there is a run-down of employment of this character and a yard which in 1950 employed something like 26,000 persons and is now down to 8,000, the morale of those persons concerned suffers considerably. I think that the Ministers themselves ought to seek ways in which to get management and employees working together to stimulate some new thinking in the yard on the clearly defined objectives which the Secretary of State and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State have indicated. Having said that, my Lords, I certainly welcome the measures that are at present before the House.

Lord ELTON

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for the kind way in which he received this order and for the cogent way in which he expressed his reservations. I was in fact aware of the case to which he referred, although I believe there to be 50 rather than 45 individuals concerned who have been affected by the anomaly and who have unwittingly placed themselves in a position where they can receive less than they otherwise would by following a path which they were counselled to take. This is recognised as a deficiency and in fact the seventh amendment in the schedule to the order remedies this deficiency: it will be put right. I hope the noble Lord will be reassured to hear that.

The noble Lord asked for a Statement and I think it is known that a Statement on the United Kingdom situation will be forthcoming before the end of this Session of Parliament. That does not mean that the future will be definitively made known to us because that depends upon the customers as well as everybody else.

The noble Lord then went on to repeat some of the observations of my right honourable friend and my honourable friend in the other place which together had the effect of saying that efficiency and productivity are the life blood of industry and it is to this that we look. I would not reduce by one syllable the importance which they gave to those two qualities and I am sure the noble Lord would not wish me to. However, I take his point that a Government must be concerned and assist when possible, and I can assure him from my personal experience that my honourable friend the Minister is deeply personally interested in this and the noble Lord need not fear that any opportunity of assisting this great company to remain viable at that level will be missed. I think that answers the three points made by the noble Lord and I am obliged to him for giving me notice of the principal one.

On Question, Motion agreed to.