THE INDO-CHINA REFUGEE PROBLEM (Hansard, 18 July 1979)

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (Lord Carrington)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will make a Statement on the Indo-China refugee problem. Noble Lords will be aware of the deep concern with which the Government have viewed the rapid deterioration of the refugee situation in South-East Asia over recent weeks. The Secretary-General of the United Nations, Dr. Waldheim, has now convened a special international meeting in Geneva on 20th and 21st of July to deal with the problem. The Government welcome this move, which was originally proposed by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister.
There can be no doubt that it is the callous and inhuman policies of the Vietnamese Government which are the root cause of the problem and it is imperative that the Vietnamese Government 1425 change those policies. Meanwhile, the burden which the flood of refugees is imposing on others in the region can be relieved only by a major and genuinely international effort.
The Government have given very careful consideration to the extent of the humanitarian problems, and in particular to the appalling burden which is being placed on the resources of the Government of Hong Kong. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has asked us to accept a further 10,000 refugees from Indo-China for settlement here. We have agreed. Because of our direct concern for the situation in Hong Kong, these extra refugees will be taken, over a period to be agreed with the Governor, from Hong Kong where there are already over 66,000 awaiting resettlement.
My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is getting in touch with the voluntary agencies who have played such a commendable role in helping with the resettlement of the refugees who have already arrived in the United Kingdom. I should like to take this opportunity of recording again the Government's gratitude to the voluntary agencies for the splendid work which they are doing in this field.
The Government also propose, subject to parliamentary approval, to make a further £5 million available from the overseas aid programme for dealing with the refugee problem in South-East Asia over the next 12 months. I shall myself attend the opening session of the Secretary-General's meeting in Geneva on 20th July. I can assure noble Lords that we shall play a full and constructive role in Geneva.

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I am sure the House will wish to thank the noble Lord, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, for the Statement he has just made. For our part we entirely agree with the purpose and content of that Statement; it is very much in line with what we believe, with the Government, to be the important facets of this appalling human tragedy which is unfortunately continuing in South-East Asia. We welcome very much the noble Lord's decision to be present as the British Foreign Secretary at the opening session in Geneva. When he has given the prestige 1426 of his own presence and office on our behalf at this important conference, at what level will the British representation at the conference continue?
We also join with him in our insistence that this conference should tackle the source of this problem. It is, of course, necessary to do everything we can to alleviate the terrible human suffering which has been caused and is continuing in South-East Asia. At the same time, it is of the utmost importance that those who are the authors of this tragedy and, for all we know, intend to go on with this dreadful policy, should be brought to Geneva to the conference and be face to face not only with the condemnation of the world hut constructive suggestions of countries like our own as to not only the alleviation of suffering but also the ending of the policy that causes that suffering. May I therefore ask the noble Lord whether he has been informed by Dr. Waldheim, the convenor of this conference, that in fact the Vietnam Government will be represented in Geneva? What other countries will be present? But, specifically, will Vietnam be present there?
We warmly welcome the decision to accept a further 10,000 refugees from Indo-China and the provision for further financial aid to help in this matter. No doubt that provision for financial aid will be reviewed as necessary over the months for which it is notionally intended. I can assure the Government that they will have every support from us in the measures which they deem, with their knowledge of the situation, to be necessary in order to pursue proper humanitarian policies in this area. Finally, I join with the noble Lord very warmly in expressing gratitude and admiration for the role which our splendid voluntary agencies have already played in this matter and stand ready to continue with their excellent services; and perhaps I could couple with them the coolness and steadfast humanity shown by the Governor of Hong Kong, Sir Murray MacLehose, throughout this time.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends I wish to thank the noble Lord for the Government's humane and generous attitude, which I believe is in no small measure due to the benign influence of the noble Lord, the Foreign Secretary, himself. With regard to the 1427 attendance at the conference, if the Vietnamese Government, as I suspect, have not accepted the invitation of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, may I ask the noble Lord to say how influence can be brought to bear to change the policies in the way the noble Lord suggests; what further steps does he think are open to us, apart from mere persuasion? Also in regard to the attendance, can the noble Lord say what influence the Governor of Hong Kong and his officials may have, considering their vital interest in the solution of this problem?
How will Her Majesty's Government convince the people of the United Kingdom, if there is any doubt, that this decision is fully justified by the humanitarian considerations involved? Will they lose no opportunity in emphasising that in recent years emigration from the United Kingdom has exceeded immigration by about 40,000 a year, so that the number of refugees we are now proposing to take will he only about one-quarter of the net emigration from the country?
In regard to the voluntary agencies, I echo what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, and ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that this emphasises yet again the need, to which attention has been drawn regularly by the Standing Conference on Refugees, for a permanent centre for refugees to be set up, with a nucleus of trained staff who could expand the resettlement work when an emergency of this kind arises.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for what they have said, and I think they echo the sentiments of the whole House over this matter. Both asked about the Vietnamese Government. The Vietnamese Government have been asked and are going to attend the conference. Consequently, they will be able to hear for themselves what is said. Of course, the conference is predominantly a humanitarian conference, but certainly I cannot believe, as the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, said, that one can divorce this matter into two; the source of the problem is the Vietnamese Government and it is right that we should say so and bring home to them the enormity of what is happening. Lord Goronwy-Roberts also asked me who was to be the British representative after I 1428 left. It will be Mr. Blaker, the Minister of State at the Foreign Office; he will be there the whole time the conference lasts.
I, too, wish to pay tribute, as both noble Lords did, to the Governor of Hong Kong. Having myself been in Hong Kong and seen what has happened, the actions and achievements in the most difficult circumstances of the Governor and the Government of Hong Kong have been truly remarkable, and we owe him and the Government a great debt. He will be with me at the conference and will be there for the duration of the conference, so he will have the opportunity also, I hope, of saying something to the conference about the situation. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked me about a permanent centre for refugees. I should like to look at that to see whether any-thing could be done about it, although I think the scale of this problem is such that no permanent organisation of that kind could be big enough to deal with it; it really is an enormous problem.

Baroness VICKERS
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he thinks there will be any possibility at the conference of setting up an organisation to trace relations? One of the saddest things about the refugees are children separated from their parents, and many of them have other relations with whom they would like to have connections. Of course during the war this was done by the Red Cross very successfully.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
I will certainly look into that, my Lords, to see whether anything can be done, and will make that suggestion.

Lord JANNER
My Lord, while thanking the noble Lord for the replies he has given and the excellent example that is being set by him and the Government and the country generally in respect of this matter, may I ask whether he can inform the House if any other countries have taken action of a similar nature and whether we have made approaches, before the actual meeting in Geneva, to see if we can get some of our friends—for example, in the EEC, and others—to do something similar?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
Yes, indeed, my Lords. A great many other countries 1429 have done a great deal, particularly—to single out three countries—the United States, France and Australia, who have done a very great deal in accepting refugees; and of course the Community itself, when the Foreign Ministers met not long ago, discussed this matter and we issued a statement about the refugee problem, as indeed did the Seven when they met at Tokyo a few weeks ago. So a great deal has been done, and though I am not sure whether all the countries are prepared to accept the targets which have been given to them, I know that a great many have and I am sure that all the countries will do what they can.

The Earl of SELKIRK
My Lords, is the noble Lord able to give an estimate of the number of persons involved and the number of deaths that have already taken place, or are such figures not available?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
Not really, my Lords, but at the moment there are several hundred thousand to be resettled; I cannot remember the exact figure, but it is 200,000 or 300,000. Of course, what is even worse is that we believe that about half of those who left Vietnam, or perhaps even more than half, have drowned on the way either to Hong Kong or Malaysia.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary whether the Press report that the Soviet Union is to be represented at the Geneva Conference is correct, whether he has been informed to that effect, and whether at the same time he has any information about the Chinese People's Republic being represented?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, I think that the Chinese will be represented, but I am not quite sure about the Soviet Government. Certainly my impression has been that the Soviet Government and the countries of Eastern Europe do not recognise that there is a problem.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, while I am sure that the Government will clearly do their very best to help find solutions for these unfortunate refugees, may I ask my noble friend whether he can give any further assurance to the British shipping industry concerning refugees who have been rescued by British ships? Will the Government at the 1430 Geneva Conference be pressing for the enforcement of the understanding concerning acceptance at the first port of call, and will it be possible for the Government to give first priority in the United Kingdom quota to those refugees who have been rescued by British ships?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, this is a real problem, and indeed there have been considerable difficulties facing British shipowners as a result of it. I hope very much that the Geneva Conference may be able to do something to help in this particular regard. I will look into the other flatter that the noble Lord raises.

§ Lord BROCKWAY
My Lords, in view of the fact that the conference is to last for only two days and has to deal with an enormous problem of the resettlement of the boat people, can the Minister give us an assurance that the British contribution will prevent the conference being hogged down over political differences about responsibilities, on which there arc different views, and that it will really address itself to the humanitarian problem of dealing with the condition of these people?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, I do not know of any different views about the responsibility for what has happened, but I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the conference is a humanitarian conference and must come up with some solutions which are on a scale to deal with the problem. Certainly Her Majesty's Government's intention is precisely that, as was shown in my Statement. I think it very important that there should be an adequate follow-up.

§ Lord REDCLIFFE-MAUD
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the great satisfaction that his Statement will give to the voluntary organisations? Is he also aware that those organisations are indeed ready to back up any support that the British Government are able to give and any assurances on behalf of Great Britain that we will not be behind-hand in the future as in the past in dealing with this infamy? Further, is the noble Lord also aware of the great admiration which some of us have for the personal part that he has already played in this business?

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, I think that the voluntary organisations ought to take heart from the fact that almost everyone who has asked questions has paid tribute to them, and I do not know that it would be possible to deal with this matter were it not for them.

§ Lord DAVIES of LEEK
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, first, whether we still have diplomatic information from Hanoi—or Ho Chi Minh city—which is of use to the noble Lord? Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that those of us who have seen the devastation of 30 years' war in Vietnam feel that there will be no modification of the bitter Communist policy until there is some co-ordinated policy of aid towards a country that has been devastated by insecticides and pesticides that cause teratological differences to the people and which are causing immense difficulty in the problem of growing enough rice today? I believe that that problem, too, should be considered at the Geneva Conference, which should not he concerned only with justifying what is happening to the boat people; indeed this other matter must not be omitted.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, we have an embassy representation in Vietnam, and obviously we receive from them a good account of what is happening. Regarding the noble Lord's second question, of course one must have regard to the causes of problems and the history of a country, but I believe that in any other situation noble Lords opposite, and noble Lords on this side of the House, would say that this was a blatant exhibition of racialism.