§ 3.7 p.m.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (The Earl of Mansfield)My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
§ Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Mansfield.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to. House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The LORD DER WENT in the Chair.]
§ Clauses 1 to 8 agreed to.
§ Clause 9 [Jurisdiction of sheriff court in proceedings relating to trusts]:
1283§ The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendments Nos. 1 to 5:
§ Page 7, line 11, leave out ("the") and insert ("an")
§ Page 7, line 18, leave out second ("the") and insert ("an")
§ Page 7, line 24, leave out ("the") and insert ("an")
§ Page 7, line 30, leave out ("the")
§ Page 7, line 32, leave out from ("contract") to end of line 10 on page 8 and insert ("—
- (i) where the truster, or any of the trusters, was at the date of the coming into operation of the trust domiciled in a sheriffdom, a sheriff court of that sheriffdom or
- (ii) where sub-paragraph (i) of this paragraph does not apply, or where the applicant does not possess sufficient information to enable him to determine which sheriff court, if any, would by virtue of that sub-paragraph be an appropriate sheriff court, the sheriff court at Edinburgh;
§ (b) in the case of a marriage contract—
- (i) where either spouse is, or was when he died, domiciled in a sheriffdom, a sheriff court of that sheriffdom; or
- (ii) where sub-paragraph (i) of this paragraph does not apply, or where the applicant does not possess sufficient information to enable him to determine which sheriff court, if any, would by virtue of that sub-paragraph be an appropriate sheriff court, the sheriff court at Edinburgh.")
§ The noble Earl said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1 standing in my name. It may be convenient if I move Amendments Nos. 1 to 5 inclusive en bloc because they are basically and primarily drafting amendments and they all relate to the same clause. Unless any noble Lord objects, I shall pursue that course. The first four amendments make it clear that it is possible for there to be more than one sheriff court to be an appropriate court for the proceedings referred to in Sections 22, 23 and 24 of the Trusts (Scotland) Act 1921. The main amendment is the fifth amendment, which provides a new form of words for the definition of "appropriate sheriff court" which paragraph (d) of the clause inserts in the Trusts (Scotland) Act 1921. The definition as presently set out in the Bill contains certain ambiguities and does not meet every circumstance. It is clearly desirable that these matters should be resolved, and an attempt has also been made to simplify the provision and to 1284 achieve a greater degree of internal consistency in the Bill as a whole.
§ Lord HUGHESThe noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, was good enough to send me some information about the amendments which the Government were proposing to the Bill, all of which are of a drafting nature. A few minutes ago the noble Lord the Government Chief Whip was pointing out that one of the Government's Manifesto commitments was to achieve economies, and I must say that I would regard it as part of the duty of an Opposition to help the Government to achieve any economies where the benefit of the economy was going to be greater than the harm which is done. I would not say that all the economies which the Government are apparently contemplating would fall into that category, but one which I have no hesitation in agreeing to is that I should be helpful in any way I can, and in so far as this Bill is concerned, it is, to say the very least, that it is possible to cut down the printing costs. Even if I wanted to be terribly political, I would find it difficult to get up an argument about substituting the word "and" for the word "the", which is perhaps one of the more important of the amendments being put forward.
In pursuit of helping the Government in their economies, I suggest that the next time they bring forward a Bill like this they might be rather more careful in its drafting so that they do not need to go to so much expense in the Committee stage. The noble Earl will not take that as a personal criticism because I know he did not draft the Bill. As a matter of fact, I am not altogether certain that the present Government had anything to do with drafting the Bill; it may have been an inheritance. I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I have no objection to Amendments Nos. 1 to 5 being taken en bloc, nor do I have any objection to any of the other amendments, so I do not intend to say any more on the Bill.
§ The Earl of MANSFIELDI am grateful to the noble Lord for that expression of support. My name is on the back of the Bill and if any blame is to be taken, I quite cheerfully take it on my shoulders. I am equally conscious that the noble Lord has kindly said that he wishes to see economies of printing, 1285 and no doubt that also applies to economies of breath, so I shall sit down without any more ado.
§ On Question, amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 10 [Power of sheriff to appoint judicial factor]:
§ 3.13 p.m.
§
The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 8, line 30, leave out ("the") and insert ("an").
§ The noble Earl said: This is a drafting amendment consequential on the drafting amendments made to Clause 9. It makes it clear that it is possible for more than one sheriff court to be an appropriate court for the presentation of a petition for the appointment of a judicial factor.
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§
The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 8, line 42, after ("than") insert ("a").
§ The noble Earl said: This is a drafting amendment to correct the omission of the word "a" from the end of line 42 on page 8.
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.
§ Clause 13 [Power of judges to act as arbiters]:
§
The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 10, line 31, leave out ("Civil Service Department") and insert ("Treasury").
§ The noble Earl said: This is a drafting amendment. The appropriate department to give consent to the amount of the fees to be charged for the services of a senator of the College of Justice is the Treasury and not the Civil Service Department.
§ On Question, amendment agreed to.
§ On Question, Whether Clause 13, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
1286§ Lord McCLUSKEYThis clause, to which I extend a welcome, enables a senator of the College of Justice to be appointed as an arbiter, and that is a wholly welcome development; we have extremely good judges in Scotland who are able thus to accept appointment as an arbiter. I wonder whether the Minister of State could briefly outline the kind of thinking that instructed this clause and whether or not he is led by that same thinking to the conclusion that we might well be advised to use our same senators of the College of Justice to deal with some planning inquiries, particularly planning inquiries of great national importance, in Scotland.
§ The Earl of MANSFIELDAs the noble and learned Lord well knows, I am in the wrong country here. All I can do is to take counsel on the matter, if I may be permitted to use the phrase, and thereafter write to him, and if he disagrees with what has been proposed, no doubt he can take it up at a later stage in the Bill.
§ Lord McCLUSKEYI should like the noble Earl to understand that I have great admiration for the judicial qualities of the senators of the College of Justice, and I feel it is rather unfortunate that they, who spend much of their professional careers at the Bar acquiring expertise in planning matters, find themselves on the Court of Session bench dealing with matters of lesser importance. It may be that we should somehow encourage these same judges to be involved, as has happened once or twice in England, in some of the more important planning inquiries. I add that in order to make it clear to the noble Earl that I make no criticism of the Bill, but merely wish to make the point that I think we are not using our judicial talent in Scotland as well as we might.
§ The Earl of MANSFIELDI am obliged to the noble and learned Lord for those remarks. There is one sitting among us who will be well seized of what is behind the noble and learned Lord's remarks, and I will consider the matter.
§ Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
1287§ Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.
§ Schedule 3 [Repeals]:
§ The Earl of MANSFIELD moved Amendments Nos. 9 and 10:
§ Page 20, leave out lines 19 to 21.
§ Page 21, line 3, at end insert—
| ("1979 c. 2. | The Customs and Excise Management Act 1979. | Section 175(2).") |
§ The noble Earl said: These are drafting amendments. The words in Section 2(1) of the 1952 Act repealed in the schedule to this Bill were, in fact, repealed by the Customs and Excise (Management) Act 1979 and re-enacted in Section 175(2) of that Act. These amendments repeal that subsection.
§ On Question, amendments agreed to.
§ Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
§ House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.
§ 3.20 p.m.
§ Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
§ [The Sitting was suspended from 3.20 p.m. to 3.30 p.m.]