HL Deb 09 July 1979 vol 401 cc647-51

2.42 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have been informed of the terms of the seven point programme which the Vietnam Government reached with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (30th May, 1979) to facilitate the orderly and safe departure of people wishing to leave Vietnam, and whether the offer of the Vietnam Government to attend a conference of countries concerned to implement the agreement has been accepted.

The SECRETARY of STATE FOR FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS (Lord Carrington)

My Lords, I am aware of the terms of the programme to which the noble Lord refers. The United Nations Secretary-General has called an international meeting in Geneva on 20th and 21st July to discuss the problems of Indo-Chinese refugees. The Vietnamese Government has been invited to attend that meeting.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him this question: Does the agreement between Vietnam and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees amount to an arrangement by which the Vietnamese may leave if they have homes or families abroad, or if they have an intention of livelihood? Has Hanoi accepted the proposal to come to the conference where it is proposed that priority should be given to a discussion by which this agreement might be implemented?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, the noble Lord is perfectly right. The agreement covers people who have had offers of resettlement because of links with relatives abroad, but of course in terms of the problem the category is so small as to be almost useless. It represents, I think, about 10 days of the exodus of Vietnamese refugees from Vietnam. Something very much more drastic than that is needed to bring home to the Vietnamese Government the scale of what is happening. The Vietnamese Government have been asked to attend the conference, but I do not know whether they have accepted.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, while agreeing with the noble Lord that the Vietnamese Government have a heavy responsibility for what has occurred, is it not in our interest that this conference on 20th and 21st July—which, I understand, is being held partly at the request of the United Kingdom Government—should be an outstanding success in terms of the resettlement of refugees who have already left, and particularly those in Hong Kong who are awaiting resettlement from Hong Kong waters? Would the Foreign Secretary tell us what offer Great Britain is prepared to make at the conference to increase the number of refugees we have already taken, so as to set an example to the other nations taking part to increase their own contributions?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, the Vietnamese Government do not have simply a responsibility for what is happening; they have the whole of the responsibility for what is happening. Of course, the Government, who were instrumental in calling the conference, wish to make it a success and we are discussing what more we can do.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, in view of his statement that the Vietnamese Government were invited to attend the Geneva conference, may I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he has been informed of what their reply has been? It seemed to me that he indicated that he did not know what the reply was.

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not know yet whether the Vietnamese Government have accepted or not.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, while we on this side of the House would wish to ask the Foreign Secretary whether he is aware that he has very strong general support in the attitude he takes to this question, may we repeat our view that the Geneva conference, to be of any use at all, must be attended by the perpetrators of this crime?—and that is not certain. In addition, it should have the most comprehensive agenda and those responsible for this infamy should not dictate the conduct or content of the conference. Questions about the continuing sources of these masses of refugees which are to be discussed are not only the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—which refer to what we do with those already expelled. That would be to connive at the policy of the Vietnamese by making it more possible for them to continue what they are doing now. We should look to the results of what they are doing. Finally, may I suggest—

Several noble Lords: Question!

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the phrase " may I suggest " is an interrogatory introduction to what I was going to say. Is the noble Lord aware that we on this side would welcome an early and comprehensive statement by him on this matter arising from his first-hand examination and experience of this problem in Hong Kong?

Lord CARRINGTON

Yes, my Lords, if I may answer the last question first, I think that perhaps the right thing to do is to make a Statement to the House after the conference has taken place on 20th July, when we shall have more of an idea of what other people have been doing to help and what other countries can do to help. Perhaps I can then say more than I am able to say this afternoon.

I agree with everything that the noble Lord opposite has said. I do not think the scale of this problem is perhaps yet understood. One of the facts I discovered in Malaysia was that recently 40 per cent. of the Vietnamese refugees who arrived there are of Vietnamese ethnic origin and not Chinese. The problem is not just related to the ethnic Chinese in Vietnam but also to others. It may be that the scale of this problem is greater than we understand. Therefore, it is very important that the world as a whole should condemn what the Vietnamese Government are doing.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, may I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he is aware that many of us in all parts of the House very much welcome his statement that the responsibility for this very grave situation is entirely that of the Government of Vietnam and of nobody else? May I also ask whether he would not agree that it would be particuarly helpful if many of those who have consistently supported the case of the regime in Vietnam would join their voices with those of many of the rest of us in applying pressure to the Government of Vietnam for them to accept their international responsibilities? Lastly, may I ask whether the Statement on the conference could be made before the House rises for the Summer Recess?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, the answer to the last question is, yes. I agree with what the noble Lord said. Sometimes I am appalled at the double standards that people have about these matters. I wonder what would have happened if we in this country had pushed off into the North Sea half a million of the people who were not ethnically our own.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords, following the Question I ventured to ask on this subject last week, may I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he can state, in order to clarify the matter and to help us further, which countries have now agreed to attend the Geneva conference and whether there is any likelihood of the Soviet Union and the Chinese People's Republic attending?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, I am afraid I could not say that without notice. I believe that about 60 or 70 countries have been asked. This is within the compass of the Secretary-General's arrangements and it is not for Her Majesty's Government to decide who is asked. I think that the Soviet Union have been asked and, speaking without notes, I have an idea that they have refused to come. I am not sure about China.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord's statement that the problem is much more complex, but I disagree with some of those who say that the sole responsibility is in Vietnam. The conference is to be for only two days. Will the noble Lord give priority first to the conditions under which the boat people leave Vietnam? Secondly—and more important—will he give priority to the terrible problem of their resettlement in the world? Can he say whether there is any truth in the proposal that Guam Island may be used for temporary purposes?

Lord CARRINGTON

My Lords, the conference is very largely directed to the humanitarian aspects of the problem and not to the political aspects, though I think it is inevitable and indeed right that during the conference it will be made abundantly plain—at any rate by Her Majesty's Government—where they think that the blame lies; but it is predominently humanitarian. All the aspects about which the noble Lord is speaking will be taken into consideration. There have been suggestions about various places being used as temporary locations where the refugees can go. But I do not think any of them has been processed very far so far.

The LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL (Lord Soames)

My Lords, I think we have had a very long run at this Question. I propose that we move on to the next Question.