HL Deb 05 July 1979 vol 401 cc506-9

3.15 p.m.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the review into " the desirability and practicality " of ceasing the authentication of negative certificates of origin, promised by Lord Goronwy-Roberts on behalf of the previous Government, in this House on 1st February (col. 432), has been completed and, if so, what is the result.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, this review is in hand. The Government are consulting the Association of British Chambers of Commerce, and will then consult other interested bodies. We shall announce our conclusions as soon as possible.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that (if I may say so) rather unsatisfactory reply in view of the fact that this has been under consideration for a very long time, may I ask him whether he is aware that those who are coming to have documents authenticated are in fact of the opinion that the Government are helping them in favour of the boycott? Would he have a word with his noble friend the Leader of the House as to how he managed to stop a similar kind of thing in Iraq; and will he please assist in letting it be known that a boycott between friendly nations is a shocking thing?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, we certainly do not agree that the boycott is in any way acceptable or satisfactory, but authentication relates only to signatures and seals on documents and not to the contents of the documents themselves. It in no way implies that the contents of the documents are condoned.

Lord BYERS

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether or not he is aware that the report of the Select Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, exposed that myth, that it is not the document itself but only the signature of the attorney? Will he look at that report, when he will see that what he has said just does not stand up in the light of the evidence?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I have looked at the report, and the fact remains that the authentication of the signatures relates only to that fact; that is, to the authentication of the signatures themselves. We never condone the content of the documents.

Lord BYERS

In that case, my Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is saying that the Committee, when it reported, was totally wrong in the conclusion that it reached, particularly as to the evidence which was given and which was refuted by the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, who exposed the view of the Foreign Office that this was not authentication but merely authentication of the signature?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I am simply reporting the facts of the matter. I agree that the Committee said that some people were perhaps misled into thinking that the Government, by authenticating the signatures, condoned the content of the document; but that is simply not so.

Lord REDCLIFFE-MAUD

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, however tenuous is the connection between the authentication by the Foreign Office of these signatures and any involvement in the boycott process, it gives the very strong impression that there is a connection? Will the noble Lord also bear in mind, when considering the result of this inquiry, that a Select Committee which included Members from all parts of the House was quite unanimous in strongly recommending that the Foreign Office should cease to be asked by its Ministers to authenticate these documents, so removing the impression that the Government are anything but totally impartial as between the friendly States, both Israel and the Arab States?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, it is certainly the case on occasions that the impression gets abroad that we are condoning the content of the documents; but I say again that that is certainly not the case. But a change in the practice whereby the Foreign Office officials authenticate these signatures on documents of all types without discrimination involves a difficult point of principle and a grave risk to our exports.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, may I support what has been said generally and join the Minister in emphasising that any further inquiry into this should make absolutely clear the difference between authentication of signature and condonation of content. I think that the Minister said quite a lot in support of that view. Perhaps a considered statement as a result of the continuing inquiry which, as I understand it, is going on, would be welcome to this House and to those who have shown an interest in this matter this afternoon, including myself.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I can undertake to keep the House informed on our consideration of this matter, but I cannot give any assurance that that will be in the very near future.

Lord CACCIA

My Lords, the Minister said that various interested bodies were going to be consulted—which, of course, we were glad to hear and expected to hear. May I ask whether, among those consultations, an attempt will be made to see whether there could be in this a joint European approach?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I think it is difficult to include necessarily all the EEC Governments in these consultations, but I can say that I think all the EEC Governments, without exception, follow the same practice as we follow.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, may I again make an appeal to the Minister to speed this up ?—because this is part of what I call the " blackmoiling " carried on against decent, reasonable nations like our own in order to make them party to what is an absurd thing; that is, the boycott of one of their allies, a people with whom we have diplomatic relations. It is a shocking thing.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord.

Lord MISHCON

My Lords, in view of the noble Lord's very clear statement that some people, and possibly some countries, are misled by the authentication procedure, would he consider whether the Foreign Office should look at some wording above the authentication which will make it abundantly clear that the content of the document is not condoned?

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, I will certainly have another look at the wording, but I do not think, off hand, that it is possible to do much about it.