The Earl ALEXANDER of TUNISMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how much of the taxpayers' money will be saved in the next 12 months by their policy of having pay beds in National Health Service hospitals.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, the provisional estimate of income received in 1978–79 from private inpatients in NHS hospitals in England is £29.7 million. We do not know how many pay beds would have been withdrawn over the next year if the previous Government's policy had continued, nor to what extent these withdrawals would have affected the level of income. Nor do we know how many pay beds there will be under our policy. I should point out that the Health Services Board, who have the job of making proposals for the withdrawal of beds, have just submitted proposals for the withdrawal of a further 58. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is obliged by law to implement these by 30th September. The board will be making further proposals in September for subsequent implementation. My right honourable friend will introduce legislation as soon as he can but I cannot of course say when this would come into effect.
Earl ALEXANDER of TUNISMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Can he tell the House what is Her Majesty's 220 Government's policy on private practice in National Health Service hospitals?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, the Minister of Health, Dr. Gerard Vaughan, has recently issued a consultative letter on the Government's proposals for legislation on private hospital practice and the future of pay beds. A copy of this letter has been placed in the Library, and all noble Lords who are interested in this subject would be well advised to read it. The detail of the proposals is in the letter, but, briefly, the proposals for pay beds are that the Secretary of State's power to allow NHS facilities to be made available for private patients will be restored and compulsory phasing out will end. It will be for individual health authorities to decide the extent to which facilities will be made available.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, will the noble Lord be good enough to inform the House how much of the tax-payers' money is lost every year as a result of people who use pay beds and do not pay their bill, and even bilk on their surgeon's and physician's fees?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I have a feeling that the noble Lord knows the answer to that question, but unfortunately I do not.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister to accept the fact that I am satisfied that he acknowledges that this sort of thing does go on?
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, in order to help future decisions that will have to be made, would it be possible for the Official Report to record what has happened to the pay beds already phased out? How many have in fact been used as hospital beds? How many have been used for administrative offices, and how many are left empty?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am not sure that I have got all the answers there. I can tell the noble Lord that there were originally 4,444 pay beds before the phasing out began, and the present number that will be phased out is about 1,700 of those pay beds.
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, what has happened to them?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question, because many of those pay beds were underused at the time. Most of the pay beds which have been phased out were phased out on account of the fact that they were little used.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, the noble Lord said that so much money would be lost if pay beds were abolished. Could he tell the House how much the average pay bed costs the country in provision of staff, nurses, doctors, facilities, and what have you?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot. I can say that, of the £29 million-odd that the NHS received, a good deal would of course go in providing the service. There would be some profit on it, but not a very great one. On the other hand, if all the pay beds were phased out, those beds would have to be otherwise financed.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to press the Government to proceed with legislation? It seems ridiculous to continue with an old, out-of-date policy which is against the present elected Government's Manifesto, particularly denying the money which comes from pay beds when modern equipment such as body scanners have to be closed down and sold off because hospitals do not now have the money to keep them equipped. This is a waste of effort and is totally unnecessary. Will legislation be coming forward fairly soon to reverse the policy of getting rid of pay beds?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, consultation is now going on and we are awaiting publication of the report of the Royal Commission on the National Health Service which is due to come out this month. Before that is seen and consultations have taken place no further decisions will be taken.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the Minister said that £29 million would have been the figure to be received by the Government. Would he agree that it 222 would be dependent on whether the pay beds in existence at that particular time had been in full use?
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEThat is correct, my Lords.