§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Agricultural Wages Board recently awarded a pay increase of the order of 13 per cent. to agricultural workers; whether this is now in accordance with Government policy on pay increases; and what action they propose to take.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, the Government have noted that the increases in minimum rates prescribed in the recent award by the Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales are in excess of the pay guidelines. These increases were confirmed by the Board on 19th January and came into effect on 20th January. The Government have no power to interfere with the decisions made by this independent statutory body.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, but does it indicate that the Government have now discovered, as did their predecessors, that wages boards and wages councils can constitute a considerable limitation upon an income policy; and will the Government do anything about it?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, the Government certainly would have preferred an award squarely within the guidelines, but the noble Lord will have noted that the Board says that it also took productivity into account.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, my noble friend's Question referred to agricultural 130 wages, but is the noble Lord aware that the craftsman's rate for agriculture is 15 per cent. and not 13 per cent. and that the overtime rate for agriculture is over 20 per cent? Will the noble Lord explain how he thinks that the Government can have a prosperous British agriculture faced with increases of that nature, when his right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture said that he was determined to see that this year, and in the years to come, there should be a freeze on farm prices? Is that really the policy of the present Administration as regards agriculture?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, the award, of course, applies only to workers on minimum rates. My right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture has said that he would welcome farmers entering self-financing productivity agreements with individual workers. There is nothing to stop them from doing that.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord be kind enough to answer the question; namely, faced with increases like that, how can we have a prosperous British agriculture when the Minister says that there is to be a freeze on farm prices?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, as the noble Earl knows very well, productivity in agriculture depends upon a great many factors.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, does it not seem surprising that members of the Conservative Party who for donkeys' years have always been supreme in matters of agricultural prosperity and the interests of the farm workers in whom they take great pride, now seem to be protesting at this increase in their wages?
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that there is no protest against these awards? What there is a protest against is the freeze on farm prices which prevents people from financing them properly. Is the idea that there should be vast productivity one which the Minister has thought up for himself, or is he not aware that British agriculture is already among the most productive in the world?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, the recent annual review White Paper showed a fall in aggregate net income of the United Kingdom agricultural industry of 3.5 per cent. in cash terms in 1978; but if the potato figures were excluded the 1978 aggregate income figures show a small rise in cash terms.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend not aware that the freeze is unlikely to take place? He cannot give any guarantee that a freeze is likely to take place in agricultural prices, nor is it likely to take place. However, the one thing that has happened—and I am very glad that it has—is that the farm workers who never had a decent wage under Conservative rule are getting a decent wage under Labour rule.
§ Lord STRABOLGIYes, my Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced earlier this month a relaxation specifically designed to help the lowest paid. I am surprised that noble Lords opposite laugh. I thought that they would be behind the Government in their fight against inflation.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that he said in his original Answer that the Agricultural Wages Board is something over which neither side of Government has any control whatever? Will he explain that to his noble friend? That is why we were laughing.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, I never know when the noble and learned Lord laughs. He laughs so often and we all enjoy it. As I said earlier, this award applies only to the minimum rates; for other workers wages are a matter for negotiations between individual employers and workers.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord take back to his right honourable friend the very real concern of those engaged in agriculture that, although they are delighted with the increase given to farm workers, they are concerned that the Minister has said that it is his determination that there will be a freeze on prices, which will mean that productivity from agriculture and the ability to pay 132 the increased wages simply will not be there?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, I think we must recognise that the agricultural workers are, of course, among the lower paid. However, we are concerned that it is precisely the lower paid who stand to suffer most if inflation is driven into double figures. As regards the other point made by the noble Earl, as I have said, my right honourable friend has said that he would welcome farmers entering into self-financing productivity agreements with individual workers.
§ Lord STRATHCLYDEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the figures he has quoted refer also to Scotland?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, no; they refer only to England and Wales.
§ Lord PARGITERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in talking about farm prices the Minister of Agriculture was referring to his negotiations with the EEC, which do not necessarily have a direct bearing on farm prices in this country?
§ Lord STRABOLGIYes, my Lords.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, can the noble Lord explain why he expects farm productivity and prices to increase by 23 per cent. next year when, according to his own figures, they went down by 3 per cent. this year? Did he not say that these wages must be paid for out of productivity? Top rates have increased by 20 per cent., and middle rates by 13 per cent., which I welcome. Produce value has fallen by 3 per cent. Where will the productivity come from next year?
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, I said that for the other workers—not those on the minimum rates—their wages were a matter for negotiation between them and their individual employers.
§ Viscount ECCLESMy Lords, will the Minister not agree that on most farms today we have reduced the labour force as much as possible? There is now no way of having one man fewer in order to pay these extra wages. Therefore, the crisis is bound to arise.