§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Sandys, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they recognise the dangers of setting up a State agency for the compulsory direction of pension fund investment and whether they will unequivocally reject any such proposal.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, PRIVY COUNCIL OFFICE (Baroness Birk)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government do not intend to set up such an agency.
§ Lord CULLEN of ASHBOURNEMy Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply, as will be the 14 million people who are either drawing pensions or who will in due course draw pensions from occupational pension schemes.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the Labour Party Conference, the Labour Party National Executive and the Labour Party/TUC joint document have all strongly recommended this? Can the noble Baroness reconfirm to the House that all these recommendations are to be neglected in the forthcoming Manifesto and that we can really rely on the fact that the investment in pension funds will in the future be made by pension fund managers and not by politicians or bureaucrats?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, the noble Lord is jumping things a bit. The Wilson 1156 Committee will be reporting in the early summer and it is for the Committee to take a view on the proposals to be expressed in that report. Nothing has gone further than that now; but the Government—I stick to my original Answer—do not intend to set up such an agency.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness this: when she comes to use her influence on the writing of the Manifesto, will she bear in mind that the chances of a State agency investing funds more profitably than is done under the present arrangements are very remote? Pensioners, now and in the future, are likely to have their pensions reduced if the investments are less profitable than they are at the moment.
§ Baroness BIRKYes, my Lords. All this is being taken into account by the Committee and the Government, and certainly the Treasury, are very well aware of it. In particular, the Government, who have really done so much by their actions to include so many people in occupational pensions, believe that it is obviously to their advantage to keep an eye on their interests and to protect them.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, are these various points not perhaps rather surprising from a Government that talks so much about the fact that industry ought to be self-financing? Are not the pension funds one of the most important savings of industry and, as regards some form of direction, may not some people take the view that funds may be better employed in supporting British industry than in buying a Louis IV commode?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I would thank my noble friend for his question. I think it is agreed that there is probably some room for more communication and discussion between the Government and the institutions and industry.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that a Government composed of the Party on this side of the House will certainly never set up such an agency?
§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLSMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that her Answer was what might be called "a timetable Answer"?—the Government are not setting up an agency at this time. Is she in a position to say whether or not the Government, with all the special knowledge to which she has referred, are against the principle of doing this at any time, or was this just a "timetable Answer"?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, the Government are against the principle of an agency with compulsory direction.