§ 11.25 a.m.
§ Lord FORESTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have made to respond to the request made by the Rhodesian ruling executive council on 5th February 1979 to send observers to monitor the 20th April elections.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, our objective is to get agreement between all the parties on a cease-fire and the holding of free and fair elections under United Nations supervision. For the Government to send observers to the internal elections would not bring us nearer that objective.
§ Lord FORESTERMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for replying to my Question. I should like to take it a little further. What harm can there be in 1920 sending some observers? At least that way we shall receive back in this country a true picture of what has taken place.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I believe that I have put forward the Government's view on previous occasions, and fairly recently. The conditions for what would be genuinely free and fair elections in Rhodesia do not, in our view, exist. Therefore, if we were to take official action (this is how we see it) in the form of sending out official observers to observe such elections, it might very well be taken in the rest of Africa—and I referred to African opinion —as being our endorsement of those elections, which we all know to be inadequate and indeed not fully free and fair. Therefore, we insist that the elections should be under United Nations supervision with everybody taking part.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord ask his right honourable friend to reconsider this? Although he has made it plain that the Government are not satisfied with the constitution and the arrangements in the internal settlement in Rhodesia, it might very well be that the people of Rhodesia at the election would take a different view from the Government. Why is it not possible for the Government at any rate to send observers to see what happens in the election? There can surely be no damage in that? Would the noble Lord not think again that there would be advantage [...] it from everybody's point of view?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we are constantly thinking about the situation in Rhodesia, and we are not by any means dogmatic on these matters. Ninety per cent. of the country is under martial law; a large number of substantial parties, the external parties, are banned; the Press and the radio are censored. Under those conditions for a Government, especially in view of their obligations to the international authority, to send observers officially to that country to observe elections which palpably are not free and fair in any sense of the term would be gravely interpreted in the rest of Africa, and I believe in the rest of the world.
§ Lord HATCH of LUSBYMy Lords, would my noble friend agree, and would he draw to the attention of Members opposite, that the Salisbury régime is still in a state of treason to Her Majesty? Would he further agree that, after blocking the Anglo-American plan designed to provide genuinely free and United Nations supervised elections for six months, that régime has now produced a constitution, and is hoping to hold elections under it, which is grossly undemocratic? Therefore, would it not be highly improper for Her Majesty's Government to send anyone who could be held to give credence to this undemocratic and treasonous régime?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, I think my noble friend has put the Government's view. In these conditions we do not see that it would be helpful, and it might be harmful, in terms of outside opinion, African and worldwide opinion, if we took this step in these conditions.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, could the noble Lord elucidate his references three or four times now in the last seven or eight minutes to African opinion? Would he not agree that he has referred to the OAU as the organ of African opinion? Can he tell the House whether any, and if so how many, of the Governments that make up the opinion attributed to OAU are themselves democratically elected in the sense that we understand?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I refer to the OAU as an extremely important element in the formulation and presentation of African opinion as a whole and we would be making a very grave mistake indeed, in the interests both of this country and of a durable settlement, if we ignored that fact. The internal arrangements of the various members of the OAU have no relevance at all to the fact that we have so to formulate our policies and actions that we take fully into account what the OAU says about the position in Rhodesia.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, when the Minister talks of African opinion, is he not talking about the opinion of Governments—Governments like ours—the opinion of peoples?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the noble Earl knows enough about the OAU and Africa to know that whenever there is any development in the situation in Rhodesia and in other parts of Africa the OAU very effectively intervenes and makes its views known.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEIdi Amin?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSIt is a matter for judgment and interpretation whether any particular Government represented in the OAU does, in his sense and mine, represent the African people.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, although it is the last day before the Recess, we have a very large amount of business to conclude. We have now spent 24 minutes on Questions and I hope I have the House with me when I say that I think we have had enough. That being so, I would, with the leave of the House, remind noble Lords that lunches will be served in the Lords' Dining Room throughout the Recess.