§ 2.50 p.m.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, following the joint Statement of the 1814 Government and the TUC made on 14th February, what steps they are taking to ensure that industrial action affecting children and the seriously ill in hospital does not recur.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the Government and the TUC have agreed to examine means by which workers in the public services could establish arrangements for negotiating their pay and conditions which would make it unnecessary for them to resort to industrial action; and have also agreed as a matter of urgency to identify the groups that might be covered by such agreements.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his helpful Answer which is consistent with his constant helpfulness in these matters. However, for the following reasons, I should like to ask whether the Government have a real sense of urgency about this: first, because we are dealing with people and not with money; we are dealing with life and death; secondly, because we are dealing with that part of the nation which cannot do anything for itself and which is entirely dependent on others for help and succour; thirdly, because, unlike most of our present troubles, this matter is one on which the country is totally united—namely, that there is nothing good to be said for action taken against children, the elderly and sick people. In other words, can the Government assure us not only that this action is being taken, but that with the utmost urgency thought is being given to a new kind of rule—and I do not use any of the "tired" words—which might at some stage need to have a sanction at the end if there were opposition?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can give your Lordships that assurance because I know what has been going on for some considerable time now: meetings have sat through the night simply because the Government recognise, as much as anyone in your Lordships' House, what a deplorable situation this is. We are anxious to see that this is resolved at the earliest possible moment. The code of practice to which I referred in your Lordships' House some time ago, which the unions devised themselves to protect all groups by providing a minimum service, has, on the whole, worked well, but 1815 unfortunately—and this is very regrettable—it has not worked in some places. However, the Government are very mindful of the urgency of the whole matter.
§ Baroness YOUNGMy Lords, from what the noble Lord has said, can I draw the conclusion that the Government hope to get a "no strike" agreement as regards children?—because that is what the public want.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I think that the Government want to go further than that. I think that the Government want to get machinery in operation whereby all possible steps that can be taken and ought to be taken should be taken before there is any question of a strike.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, despite his reference to the deplorable situation, both his answers seem hardly in touch with the situation? Is he not aware that in the eyes of many the country has never sunk so low as where a section of those employed in the public sector are taking it out on the old, the sick and the dying, as is happening at this very moment?
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government's continuing refusal to call for volunteers to help in these vital services is causing grave disappointment with the Government's powers of leadership? Is he aware that there is a natural instinct in all humanity to help the sick and the children, and that a call for volunteers would meet with an immense response? Is the noble Lord further aware of the grave disappointment that there is throughout the whole nation in the Government's failure in leadership in this respect?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not want to be misunderstood, but when one says that it is a matter for the Government to call for volunteers, the only people who know whether or not volunteers are necessary, whether they can be used and in what circumstances they can be used, are those in the hospitals. Many of the hospitals have done so and have profited by it. But in some places—and we must face this fact, whether or 1816 not we like it—it has been counter-productive.
The Lord Bishop of SOUTHWARKMy Lords, are the Government aware that although I would gladly support reasonable increases for the lowest paid, nevertheless sheer human compassion means that, although these discussions are continuing, we must do everything we can to protect the elderly and the children? Are the Government aware that in my own diocese alone when I appealed to people to go through the pickets if need be, and to help old people to the lavatories, to feed them and to ensure that they were taken to their beds, we had far more volunteers than we could cope with? If a bishop can get that number of volunteers, the Government could get a thousand times more.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there are volunteers who normally go to the hospitals who have in fact been told to keep away because if they do their voluntary work it will incur the wrath of the strikers?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, that is precisely what I said a moment or two ago: that sometimes such actions are counter-productive and create difficulties.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that to expect assistance from volunteers in a deplorable affair such as this is not a satisfactory way of dealing with this problem? Why is it that we only seek to deal with deleterious situations after the event and never seek to anticipate them? Are we not reaching a stage when, although the right to strike should not be completely withdrawn, we must provide some remedy in order to avoid too frequent strikes? Ought we not to have recourse to arbitration, even if sometimes it is unsatisfactory? Ought it not to be tried in order to prevent these horrific events that have recently occurred?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it is one of the lessons of life that most of us are wiser after the event. The very fact that the Government and the TUC have recently got together with a view to trying to formulate a scheme whereby the strike is the last resort and not the first 1817 resort should, for the future, meet some of the difficulties—if not all the difficulties—that we have recently encountered.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that a firm attitude rather than to a slow one on the part of the Government might lead to a quicker agreement?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not know whether or not it is permissible to ask the noble Lord what he means by a "firm attitude".
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, I suggest the use of volunteers.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of reports in the Press of hospitals having worked much better with fewer porters, and that this has proved that the National Health Service hospitals are in many cases overstaffed in the number of porters they have?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, this is the first time I have been informed that hospitals have worked more efficiently with fewer staff. I thought the complaint had been that so many people had been inconvenienced by what has been going on.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept that there is a distinction between, on the one hand, hospitals calling for voluntary helpers and, on the other hand, hospitals actually turning away those who normally give voluntary help?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we went over this a few minutes ago. I said that there was a reason for hospitals taking that line—because they thought that it would exacerbate the situation.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, will the noble Lord accept that within the next few months there may well be a change of Government and that, therefore, if a lasting solution is to be found to this vexed problem of pay determination in the public service, it is vital that it should be acceptable to parties other than merely this Government and the TUC? If that is so, may I further ask why it is that the Government persist in refusing repeated pleas from all sides of this House that they 1818 should consult with Opposition Parties as to how these difficult problems, industrial and of an economic kind, can be solved?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I accept what the noble Lord has said, that this country may suffer the misfortune of having a change of Government in the next few months, which will considerably exacerbate the present situation. Of course I hope that that does not happen. But my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and others, who are in daily and nightly touch with this situation, have examined the possibility of whether any useful purpose would be served by calling together the leaders, as the noble Lord has suggested, and I think the answer to that is that the Prime Minister has not found that that course would be likely to be helpful.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for the temperate way in which he has answered a barrage of questions, may I ask him what comfort any of his answers will bring to the 16, 17 or 18 year-old people who are taking their A-levels this summer?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we are going down another road now, but I have great sympathy with the question which the noble Lord has asked. The situation is deplorable and we are concerned about it, and the Secretary of State for Education and Science is concerned about it, and it is something that ought not to have happened; but I am hoping that in the very near future these difficulties will be resolved so that we can get back to normality.