HL Deb 19 February 1979 vol 398 cc1573-7

5.6 p.m.

Lord ABERDARE

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Aberdare.)

Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY

My Lords, I will keep your Lordships for

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 28; Not-Contents, 102.

CONTENTS
Amulree, L. Hampton, L. Robson of Kiddington, B.
Ardwick, L. Lloyd of Kilgerran, L. St. Davids, V.
Avebury, L. [Teller.] London, Bp. Seear, B.
Bacon, B. McGregor of Durris, L. Sefton of Garston, L.
Banks, L. [Teller.] McNair, L. Southwell, Bp.
Collison, L. Meston, L. Stewart of Alvechurch, B.
Cooper of Stockton Heath, L. Onslow, E. Wade, L.
Darling of Hillsborough, L. Paget of Northampton, L. White, B.
Gladwyn, L. Ritchie-Calder, L. Wynne-Jones, L.
Hale, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Alexander of Tunis, E. Fairfax of Cameron, L. Malmesbury, E.
Alport, L. Faithfull, B. Marley, L.
Ampthill, L. Falkland, V. Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Auckland, L. Ferrers, E. Molson, L.
Avon, E. Fortescue, E. Monck, V.
Bessborough, E. Fraser of Kilmorack, L. Monk Bretton, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L. Gainford, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Briggs, L. Gisborough, L. Mottistone, L.
Brooke of Cumnor, L. Glasgow, E. Mountgarret, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L. Glenkinglas, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Tellor.]
Caithness, E. Green way, L.
Campbell of Croy, L. Gridley, L. Newall, L.
Carrington, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. Norfolk, D.
Cathcart, E. Nugent of Guildford, L.
Clancarty, E. Halsbury, E. O'Brien of Lothbury, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L. Hanworth, V. Orr-Ewing, L.
Clitheroe, L. Harmer-Nicholls, L. Rankeillour, L.
Cockfield, L. Harris of Greenwich, L. [Teller.] Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Cottesloe, L. Reigate, L.
Craigavon, V. Hawke, L. St. Just, L.
Croft, L. Hewlett, L. Sandys, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L. Hornsby-Smith, B. Slim, V.
Daventry, V. Hylton, L. Somers, L.
Davidson, V. Hylton-Foster, B. Stanley of Alderley, L.
de Clifford, L. Ilchester, E. Stradbroke, E.
Denham, L. Inglewood, L. Strathclyde, L.
Derwent, L. Killearn, L. Strathspey, L.
Douglas of Barloch, L. Kinnaird, L. Teviot, L.
Ebbisham, L. Lauderdale, E. Tranmire, L.
Elles, B. Linlithgow, M. Vernon, L.
Elliot of Harwood, B. Listowel, E. Vickers, B.
Elton, L. Lloyd of Hampstead, L. Vivian, L.
Emmet of Amberley, B. Long, V. Ward of North Tyneside, B.
Evans of Hungershall, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Westbury, L.
Exeter, M. Lyell, L. Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and Motion disagreed to accordingly.

only a minute. My remarks concern the Isle of Wight Bill and also the South Yorkshire Bill. Perhaps I could ask the noble Lord the Chairman to draw my remarks to the attention of the Select Committees on both Bills, rather than that I should speak separately on the two Bills. My worry concerns provisions in Clause 36 of the Isle of Wight Bill and Clause 77 of the South Yorkshire Bill asking for powers to prevent straw and stubble burning linked to drought orders. I suppose I should declare an interest; I am a farmer. I would make three points. First, it seems to me illogical to prevent burning in South Yorkshire when neighbouring counties are not so prevented. What happens when the county boundary goes through the middle of a field? I certainly would feel aggrieved if my neighbour could burn and I could not, Would I be paid extra for this sacrifice? I rather doubt it.

Secondly, I am not certain whether the mischief that the clause is designed to stop is the hazard of fire, or whether it is intended to conserve water supplies. I rather suspect the former and consequently doubt the advisability of linking the operation of the clause to drought orders. These orders do not correspond to the driest weather when fire may be a hazard but rather follow as a result of long dry periods; for instance, a recently enacted order—I think it is still in force or it certainly was at Christmas-time—by the South West Water Authority, when there was no shortage of rainfall in Devon or Cornwall at that time, and certainly there was no fire risk in December. If it is the latter—that is, saving water—I would say, first, that it is the plough and the cultivator which is the better weapon to fight fires than water so far as stubble is concerned. Surely, if it is a question of water, there should be some exclusion for those farms that have their own water supplies.

Thirdly, I am seriously concerned about the danger of leaving acres of unburned straw about at times when it is dry and most vulnerable to accidental fire. Increased access to the countryside makes this danger worse every year. Also, as your Lordships know, there has been a very unfortunate increase in the incidence of arson on the farm today. I believe that a controlled programme of stubble burning removes this potentially hazardous risk, although I would, of course, be more than happy to agree to rules and directions on how farmers light fires and control fires. In any event, these are in force at present in many counties and districts and are strongly, indeed I would say more than strongly, supported by all responsible farmers, and certainly by the farmers' organisations.

Finally, I realise that many people dislike stubble burning. I feel that I am standing here as an arsonist. But, without going into a long discussion—which I do not intend to do—on its essential role in modern agriculture, I should say that all leading scientific thought is 100 per cent. in favour of a good burn on an arable farm. As an arable farmer I would say, that the advantages of a good burn, coupled with modern methods of cultivation practised by many arable farmers in this country, and indeed encouraged by such agricultural research stations as Letcombe and the Weed Research Station, are showing the way—and I really mean this—to some of the most exciting advances that British agriculture or British arable argiculture has seen for quite a long time.

There seem to be two common factors in my double appeal to your Lordships' House tonight and to its Select Committees. First, both my appeals try to protect individual liberty and, secondly, in both cases it seems strange, and indeed sad, that the provisions in these two Bills seek to harm farming, and in the case of the previous Bill—the Greater Manchester County Council Bill—dinghy racing and sailing. It is a strange coincidence that both of those occupations, if I can call them that, are ones in which we as a country are world leaders.

Lord MOTTISTONE

My Lords, I should like to say a few words on Second Reading and begin by declaring an interest as an inhabitant of the Isle of Wight. I should like to make two brief points in commending the Bill to your Lordships and to the Select Committee. As we heard earlier from the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, the Isle of Wight had its last Act in 1971 which, in terms of Private Acts, is comparatively recent. So, that Act dealt very recently with the matters required to be dealt with by that part of the country and the inhabitants of the Isle of Wight. Therefore, in so far as this Bill repeats the salient points of the previous Bill and updates them, I would recommend it to the House and the Select Committee.

There are many details with which I shall not bore your Lordships, but there are two petitions which I should like to mention briefly. Both petitions are worthy of consideration by the Committee. As regards that one has no doubts whatsoever. However, it seems to me that one of the petitions could lead to a monopoly situation. I should like strongly to make the point that, so far as the Isle of Wight is concerned, transport to the mainland is a matter of great importance and requires the greatest possible flexibility and alternatives as regards both goods and persons. I would ask the Committee to pay particular attention to anything in the terms of the petitions which it thinks might militate against that, both now or in the future.

My only other remarks relate to the Instruction by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I am not sure whether I should speak now or wait until after the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has spoken. By the leave of the House I prefer to speak later when we know what plans the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has.

Lord ABERDARE

My Lords, I shall certainly draw the attention of the Select Committee which is to consider the Bill to what the noble Lord has said, and, in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Stanley of Alderley, I shall draw his remarks to the attention of the Select Committees considering both this Bill and the South Yorkshire Bill.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.