SOUTH AFRICA: ECONOMIC SANCTIONS (Hansard, 15 February 1979)

§ Viscount TRENCHARD
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)
My Lords, comprehensive economic sanctions against South Africa would have important and serious consequences for the British economy, especially on employment in this country and our investment in South Africa. The precise effect would, however, depend on the context and nature of the sanction. Comprehensive sanctions would also seriously affect other Western countries as well as South Africa's neighbours. However, as the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said in another place on 22nd November, South Africa cannot be, given a blank cheque to pursue policies in Southern Africa, either internally or externally, which are in direct contravention of the United Nations Charter".—[Official Report, Commons; col. 1252.]

§ Viscount TRENCHARD
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, and while one is hopefully aware that there is a chance of agreement on elections in Namibia, and while sharing the distaste, which we all do, of apartheid, may I ask whether the noble Lord would not agree, in view of the serious effects of sanctions which he has just outlined, that if sanctions were effective they would not only have the serious effects that he mentioned, but would also have a disastrous effect on the black as well as the 1392 white population of South Africa? Does this not make it so serious as to make it a policy that it is wrong even to contemplate, and would the noble Lord not agree that the best chance of change is to keep open every channel of contact, including the trade channel, so that enlightenment may seep in through every pore?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I think that in making his Statement my right honourable friend put the position in a very balanced way. He indicated that this country would keep in proper relation to its obligations under the Charter. We can do no other. On the other hand, he quite rightly pointed out that we have very strong economic links with South Africa—I understand that our investment there has a market value of some £5,000 million—and we are dependent on that general area for vital materials, vital minerals, for our industry and our workforce. The two points must be kept in relation to each other, and that is precisely what this Government will continue to do.

§ Lord HATCH of LUSBY
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the lines of communication referred to on the other side have been open for a very long time and appear to have resulted in the policy of apartheid which we all abhor? Is he aware that it was only in the early hours of this morning when I returned from discussing this very subject with all the leaders of East and Central Africa, and I did so with those of West Africa earlier this year, and that there is unanimous agreement that the prestige and reputation of this Government and of this country will depend on the action in which they participate in removing this racialist scourge of apartheid? Is my noble friend now aware that the exports of this country to Nigeria alone are double those to South Africa, so that there is both a practical and a moral issue involved in this subject?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I certainly agree that it is a twofold question of principle and of interest, as so often happens in these matters. We have a responsibility to use our economic influence to apply pressure for peaceful change and to maintain communication, as we do, with the South 1393 African Government and with others involved in Southern Africa. Our dependence on trade with South Africa—and I agree with my noble friend that we have quite vital interests in trade with other parts of Africa—and our dependence on them for materials gives us a leverage of influence which we are exerting. Indeed, we recently discussed in this House a code of conduct on employment in South Africa, which the White Paper last year sought to commend to British employers in that area. Considerable advances have been made on the basis of the guidance issued by that White Paper, and we intend shortly to provide a full assessment of British company reports under the code. We shall then consider what further steps might be taken to encourage compliance with the code. So there is advance in this matter.

§ Lord CARRINGTON
My Lords, would the noble Lord, whose first Answer acknowledged the economic realities of life, explain to his noble friend behind him the consequences of mandatory sanctions on Zambia, on Botswana, on Namibia and on Swaziland?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, my Lords. I thought that the noble Lord had, in a way, done that already by putting the question in the way in which he did. But perhaps I can add my own meagre support to what he has said. It is true that wide-ranging economic sanctions would have serious implications for South Africa's neighbours, such as Botswana, Lesotho, and Swaziland, whose economies are very closely linked with that of South Africa.

§ Lord GLADWYN
Can the Minister confirm that sanctions can be imposed only as a result of action taken under Chapter 7 of the Charter, involving the agreement of all permanent members of the Security Council?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
Yes, my Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, is absolutely right. Sanctions can be imposed only as a result of action taken under Chapter 7, and it would have to be international action taken at the instigation of and with the authority of the United Nations. I did not understand my noble friend to suggest that this 1394 country should engage in unilateral sanctions against South Africa.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I had a letter yesterday from two friends in Cape Town who wanted to know what we thought about the situation in South Africa. Whatever we may think about events in South Africa, can my noble friend tell me of any case where sanctions have been sought to be imposed and where they have been effective? Ever since Italy and the Abyssinian affair, the League of Nations, and later the United Nations have had sanctions. And what has happened? Nothing at all.

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I think that I should answer that question in this way; that is, that economic and social sanctions are a fairly new attempt to provide a substitute for war. It is a moot question whether any war settles for very long certain outstanding questions, but war has been going on for a long time. The substitute for war has not been tried for a long time. It may well be that the way for the future is to continue with refining the methods of non-physical persuasion on countries and Governments as a substitute for the traditional use of force.

§ Lord AVEBURY
My Lords, does the Minister agree, and has he heard it from black South Africans, that once majority rule is attained, the future trading policies of a liberated South Africa will be determined, at least partly, by the historical experience the leaders of the liberation movement have had in trying to persuade foreign countries to use economic leverage against the South African régime? Therefore, although the Minister may not be enamoured of sanctions, will he consider very carefully all measures short of sanctions, such as disinvestment in South Africa, which can help to bring apartheid to an end?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, on behalf of the Government my right honourable friend and I will undertake to study various methods of persuasion, including the use of the economic lever, in order to induce Governments to conform more closely with basic principles of human rights. I would not wish to go into detail as to exactly how that leverage might be best exercised. 1395 I personally think that if we are involved economically in South Africa it means two things: we are dependent to that extent upon them, and they are dependent upon us to that extent. Therefore, we should use that interdependency to continue to try to persuade them peacefully to change their ways.

§ Lord WIGG
My Lords, as my noble friend is tempted to accept the argument that sanctions have not been effective, I wonder whether he would be good enough to explain to the House the phenomenon which causes Mr. Smith's many friends on the Tory Benches constantly to demand the removal of sanctions against Rhodesia?

§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS
My Lords, I think the answer to that question would best come from the noble Lords to whom my noble friend presumably addressed his question.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)
My Lords, I think we have had a good run on this Question. We ought to proceed to the next.