§ 3.44 p.m.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place in answer to a Private Notice Question on the disruption of children's education as a result of industrial action. The Statement is as follows:
"About 1,200 schools are closed, that is 4.6 per cent. of over 26,000 schools in England. Two-thirds are in the areas of seven local education authorities in Greater London and the North-East. My aim is to get normal education restored for all children as soon as possible, but those taking public examinations this year deserve priority. At the outset of the present dispute, following representations from me, the public sector unions agreed together to give guidance to their members under which they would give 48 hours' notice of any industrial action, use their good offices to call off unauthorised local action of which such notice had not been given, and refrain from any action which would impede the conduct of public examinations. I asked them to extend similar protection to all teaching of examination classes, but they were unwilling to do so. Nevertheless, most of the authorities badly affected are managing to provide some teaching for examination classes, often in schools or on restricted time-tables, in makeshift accommodation.
"My Department is in regular touch with all the local education authorities affected, who have been asked to supply 1119 details of any breaches of the unions' guidance. Any reports of breaches are taken up immediately, locally or if necessary nationally, with the trade unions concerned.
"Yesterday, I held a meeting with the chairmen and the chief education officers of the 12 authorities which had been hardest hit, or threatened. I asked them to make every effort to keep schools open and where this proved impossible to take immediate steps to mitigate the consequences of the closure of schools on children's education, especially that of young people in their examination years. They told me at first hand about the situation in their areas, and the steps they were taking to deal with it. I promised that if necessary I would call them together again to discuss further action".
My Lords, that completes the Statement.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady David, for the very clear way in which she has answered my Question, but I am afraid that I cannot thank her for the content of what she said because it paints a very black picture indeed. Is the noble Baroness aware that the Answer which she has had to give to your Lordships today contains absolutely nothing in answer to the specific Question which I have asked—namely, what are the Government able to do in order to protect the interests of examination pupils? If I may remind the noble Baroness, in case she thinks that I am being unfair, embedded in her Answer is this sentence: The Secretary of State asked the public service unions
to extend similar protection"—that means refraining from action—to all teaching of examination classes, but they were unwilling to do so".Arising from that, I should like to ask the noble Baroness two questions, one specific and one general. Among the many local education authorities, totalling up to 1,200 schools which are closed in England, as recorded in the Answer, there is the London Borough of Haringey, which, in a public statement, has taken it upon itself to say that because it is in sympathy with the National Union of 1120 Public Employees and the other public service unions, it will close its schools. Those schools have been closed since 22nd January. What is the right honourable friend of the noble Baroness doing with regard to the London Borough of Haringey, either specifically to warn that borough of its dereliction, or possible dereliction, of its statutory duty to provide sufficient education? Alternatively, what is the Secretary of State possibly planning that she may have to do under her duties under the Education Act 1944?My general question is this: If strike action continues or, as the National Union of Public Employees threatened at the weekend, if strike action increases, what do the Government intend to do to protect examination candidates?—who, after all, are entirely innocent in this matter and whose exam prospects are daily becoming bleaker.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, I should like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, and I am tempted to ask what sort of people are they in the public service unions who will prevent children being taught for examinations, the results of which may well affect the whole of their lives thereafter. I should also like to support what has been said about the statutory duty of the Secretary of State under the Education Act 1944. She has a statutory duty to perform, to provide comprehensive education in all areas where there is a demand, and so have the local education authorities. Will the noble Baroness represent to her right honourable friend the Secretary of State that this is a matter where the law should be brought into force and where a mandatory injunction should be sought in the courts against those who are preventing teaching for examinations?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, after having taken advice, my right honourable friend is satisfied that at present there is no case for the use of her default powers under Section 99 or for directions on gounds of unreasonable action under Section 68 of the Education Act against any local education authority. Noble Lords will be aware that since the Tame-side judgment it is much more difficult for a Secretary of State to make a case for unreasonable action. My right honourable friend is very aware of the crisis 1121 circumstance for certain children, and I shall certainly bring to her attention what has been said in this House. She will no doubt be meeting again very shortly with the authorities where the most difficulties have been experienced. I am quite certain that she will ensure that these children suffer as little as possible.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, arising out of that answer, may I ask the noble Baroness how much dereliction is required before the default powers are triggered? How much longer have we to wait?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I think that my right honourable friend can only go by the best legal advice she has been given at the moment. I think from the point of view of the teachers' unions there is being a change of heart here. We have had the NAHT and the NUT rather reversing their earlier position of not going into the schools. For the most part they are now doing this and teaching, if not doing the duties of the caretakers, and so on. I am quite sure that my right honourable friend is as distressed as any noble Lord here about what is going on and will not let the situation run on indefinitely.
§ 3.52 p.m.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, as one who has held the office of Secretary of State and as one who has some experience of the law, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that the Tameside judgment has nothing whatever to do with the default powers, but had to do with something absolutely different? Can she not inquire of the local authorities whether they cannot get an injunction to stop people interfering with the performance of their statutory duties? Do not the great majority of the country know that we have been in a state of emergency ever since the beginning of the road hauliers' strike and have had absolutely no leadership from the Government at all?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I shall certainly bring to the attention of the Secretary of State what the noble and learned Lord opposite has said, but she has taken legal advice and is abiding by the advice she has had for the moment.
§ Baroness SEEARMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness a question, to which she may quite reasonably not have an answer to give straight away but which perhaps she could answer at a later date? She said in the Statement that breaches of the agreement had been taken up and reported. That means that there have been breaches. May we have information as to what has happened after they have been taken up?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, when breaches have been reported it is hoped that, first of all, action will be taken locally, and only nationally in the last resort. These are being reported, daily I think, and if the noble Baroness would like it I have a list of the authorities where breaches have taken place. I could give her further information in a letter if she would like it, or personally later, about the actual breaches that have happened.
§ Lord ROBBINSMy Lords, might I ask the noble Baroness to give me personal advice? I am the fortunate grandfather of a grand-daughter who is due to take her O-levels this summer, and she is shut out of her school in Haringey. I would ask the noble Baroness what should be my attitude to the Haringey authorities? Should it be one of hatred and contempt, which I now feel? Further, what should be my attitude to the Secretary of State for her complacence in this iniquitous state of affairs?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I can assure you that the Secretary of State, with whom I was talking earlier this afternoon, is far from complacent about the situation as it is now. I think I must leave it to the noble Lord to make up his own mind about what he says to his family.
§ Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURNMy Lords, may I say—
§ Several noble Lords: Ask!
§ Lord TAYLOR of BLACKBURNI apologise. May I ask this question? What are the associations of the local education authorities doing to try to persuade teachers to go back into schools, and so on? We on this side—I am sure the majority of Members on all sides of 1123 the House—feel exactly the same way about this. But are we getting any leadership? Are we getting any guidance from the associations on this? Is the Secretary of State getting any guidance from the associations on this? The answer is, No. No, they are not. It is all very well my—
§ Several noble Lords: Speech!
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, apparently my noble friend has answered his own question.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, coming, as I do, from the North-East, which is badly affected, may I ask whether the noble Baroness, or the Secretary of State, has a list of the children who are prevented from taking their examinations at the proper time? The noble Baroness has made a general statement, but I want to know how many children are really affected, because it affects them both now and in the future? I should like to have a list of the children who are in this position. She has not mentioned, so far as I can make out, the numbers of children who are concerned.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I have a list of actions that have been taken in some of the authorities in the North-East. For instance, in North Tyneside the special schools are open; the fifth and sixth forms can enter schools, and other years have access for four hours a week. At Newcastle, Sunderland and Durham the fifth and sixth forms are being educated. I have further details that I could give to the noble Baroness if she wishes them later.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for her answer, I should like the information put in Hansard so that everybody can see. She has not given me any names. I want to know the names of the children.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I think that the names of the children would probably be rather too much. If the noble Baroness put down a Question for Written Answer, I have a lot of information which she would like to have.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, would the noble Baroness tell us 1124 what consideration the Secretary of State has given to mobilising voluntary help to assist in this serious crisis for our school-children? If she has given that consideration, what conclusions has she reached?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I do not know what the Secretary of State has done herself about voluntary help, but what I do know is that certain LEAs have been using some voluntary help. I think it is up to the LEAs to organise that themselves, and it seems to me that it is not a job that the Secretary of State could manage. This is something which obviously is within the province of the local education authorities.
§ Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORDMy Lords, does the noble Baroness mean that the Secretary of State has taken no view about using voluntary help in this matter?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I am sure she is not against using volunteers.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, may I revert to a question which I asked in a more general context last week, but to which I got no answer from the Government as such? Where people employed, for example, as caretakers in schools decide to remain at work, will they be afforded full protection by the Government as to their continued employment in cases where a closed shop is in operation?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I cannot answer for the Government on that, and I think I can only do what my noble friend did before; namely, to say that personally I hope no action would be taken against them.
§ Lord BELSTEADMy Lords, the noble Baroness is not giving adequate replies to questions being asked in the House today, and while we realise that she is not personally speaking for the Department, she is speaking for the Government. Did the noble Baroness read in yesterday's Guardian the statement by the assistant general secretary of the Association of Assistant Masters and Mistresses that the members of that association were ready to do their normal duties if called upon to do so? In the light of that lead, has the time not come 1125 when the Secretary of State could at least gird herself up to send round a circular to local education authorities saying that schools must be kept open in order that the education of children who are about to face their examinations shall not suffer?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I think my noble friend the Secretary of State is doing as much as she can at the moment. She is very keen to get more schools open, but it is very difficult to take total action centrally when it is the LEAs' responsibility locally; it is the LEAs' first responsibility.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, everybody in your Lordships' House, I am sure, without exception, wants to put an end to this unhappy and miserable affair. However, despite all that has been said and the questions that have been asked, and even the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, about an injunction—I do not believe that would have any effect in the long run—if the teachers intend to stay out and the caretakers intend to carry on with this strike we have only one remedy. These people are determined to get their own way. They want higher wages and better conditions. In the circumstances, even if it means that we must pay higher taxes and increased rates, it would be far better to bring this miserable affair to an end and accept the consequences.
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for what he said, but I do not think there was a question to answer.
§ The Marquess of SALISBURYMy Lords, is it not a fact that the head teacher is responsible for the opening and closing of the school and that the authority is only delegated to the caretaker? If that is so, could not the Minister give directions that he should carry out his duties?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, I think it is the local authority which is responsible for the opening of the schools and it is delegated to the caretakers.
§ Several noble Lords: No!
1126§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, the NUT, the NAHT and other unions have said they are willing to open the schools in nearly every case, although they will not perform jobs like cleaning which are done by caretakers.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend what I hope is a constructive question? Does she agree there will be some boys and girls who will require, say, 60 points to pass an examination but who, because of the lack of tuition in recent weeks, may manage to muster only 58 or 59 marks? Could the markers be given advice or instructions to moderate their judgment in those cases so the children are not harmfully done by?
§ Baroness DAVIDMy Lords, having at one time worked as a marker and an awarder for one of the boards, I am sure that all those who will be marking and awarding grades this summer will know exactly what the situation has been, and I am sure that, being sensible people, they will act accordingly.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I would remind the House that we have 24 speakers to come today and another Statement which has been made in the other House. I fully understand the feeling which is aroused in your Lordships' House, but I hope I have the feeling of noble Lords when I say that we should pass to the next Statement.