HL Deb 08 February 1979 vol 398 cc826-8

3.18 p.m.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have approved the expenditure involved in the proposal of the Southwark Borough Council to build a new town hall; what is now the estimated cost of this project; and what proportion of this figure will be paid for by the ratepayers of Southwark and by the taxpayer.

The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Stedman)

My Lords, no. My right honourable friend has carefully considered the matter, but there are no grounds on which he can either allow or disallow this expenditure. Such projects are not subject to individual Government financial approval since they come within the locally-determined sector, within which local authorities are free to determine their own priorities. Southwark Council estimate the cost of the project to be about £28 million at 1978 prices. In addition, there would be some acquisition costs. This would be met from the authority's rate fund, but I cannot say what share would be met by the ratepayer and by the taxpayer. My right honourable friend is still considering the planning issues involved.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask whether she can confirm that there is no question arising of grant or loan sanction by the Secretary of State; and, if that be so, is it still not open to the Government to express an opinion to the local authority concerned as to the appropriateness or otherwise of a large expenditure of this kind for this purpose in present circumstances?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, in so far as finance is concerned, my understanding is that Southwark have been talking about a new town hall since local government re-organisation in 1964. They considered that their priorities initially were to be the housing of their people. They have done a great deal in the housing field and have now got it almost in balance with the needs. This particular project would be financed from locally-determined schemes and I am sure that the noble Lord would not expect the Government to interfere in monies given to local authorities for them to decide what are their own priorities. They have decided, in their wisdom or otherwise, that their priority at this point in time is to go ahead with their town hall; therefore this they are doing and this is something they have to stand by. We have no right to interfere except on planning grounds.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My Lords, if the Government have no right to interfere, have they not the right, and perhaps the duty, to express an opinion?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I think opinions have come from various individuals but the Government as such have no right to express an individual opinion or try to dictate to local authorities how they should spend the money which is given to them in the locally determined sector.

Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS

My Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that the Government grant is given without the Government ever having looked at any projections from the local authorities? Do not the local authorities have to project what they have in mind? Was this included in any projections they gave to the Government?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord opposite knows that when money is given for the locally determined sector it is a matter entirely for the local authorities to sort out their priorities regarding how they should spend that money. This scheme is part of that.

Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE

My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us how the cost of £28 million compares with the cost of a new hospital?

Baroness STEDMAN

No, my Lords.

Lord REDCLIFFE-MAUD

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there are those of us who feel very strongly that Parties when in Government and when not in Government are very liable to say how important it is that they believe in local government, and that local government should be able to take decisions of their own; and, entirely regardless of the rights and wrongs of Southwark's decision, we very much welcome the determination of this Government not to interfere with what has been accepted by both Parties as something which local authorities ought to decide for themselves?

Baroness STEDMAN

My Lords, the noble Lord has put it much better than I could have done.