§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, following the Statement on secondary picketing by the Prime Minister on 16th January, they propose to invite the TUC to discuss this issue with Ministers; and, if so, when they expect these talks to take place.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, discussions between TUC representatives and Government Ministers on all aspects of the present industrial situation, including picketing, have already taken place and are continuing.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him two supplementary questions: First, will he do his best to ensure that those critics of the position of the police in the recent picketing problems have their attention drawn to the letter in today's Daily Telegraph from Mr. Philip Knights, the President of the Association of Chief Police Officers, which deals with some of the criticisms made of the police in, if I may say so, a very effective manner? Secondly, on the question of the voluntary code of conduct, may I ask him, speaking as one who is certainly in favour of such a voluntary code of conduct, whether the Government are discussing with the TUC the way in which trade unions can ensure that their members abide by any such code of conduct after it has been agreed between the trade unions and the Government?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, may I first say that I am sorry I have not read the letter in the Daily Telegraph—I will acquaint myself with it when I leave the Chamber—but I take note of what has been said by my noble friend on the question of a code of conduct. As to how this affects the police, I should have thought that he himself was in a better 687 position than even I am now, at the Dispatch Box. After all, he was recently a Minister of State in the Home Office. I will do all I can to see that this matter is raised, but I hope my noble friend will appreciate that it would be very wrong of me to intervene too much because of the sensitive situation.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, is that really the right answer from the noble Lord the Leader of the House? Surely the question was: how are people to be made to comply with the code of conduct which has in fact been agreed? That is the real crux of the question.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, the real crux of the question is in the original Question which concerned talks going on between the Government and the TUC. I elaborated on the other point and said I would pursue it further.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, with all respect to the noble Lord the Leader of the House, the code of conduct has been drawn up by the union and has been agreed. Many members of the union are not complying with the code. What is to be done?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, what does the noble Lord want us to do immediately? Shoot them?
§ Baroness ELLESYes!
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I hope that noble Lords will be careful in what they say today on this matter. I am hoping that we can finally reach an end of the road on this strike action. We all of us want a sensible settlement but it is right and proper that we should examine the law in relation to picketing and other matters. The noble Lord wants me to go into that. I have given an undertaking that I shall do so. I cannot go any further. Noble Lords should be careful.
§ Lord BYERSMy Lords, the noble Lord has missed the point again. The real point is this. What disciplinary power are the unions going to use on their own members?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, that is a matter for the unions. They have the 688 right to do that. As a last resort, if a person is denied his job because of the taking away of his union card he himself has rights in the courts. I am not a lawyer and would not pretend to be an expert in these matters, but that is how I understand the position. I am not dodging this in any way; I am trying to give a helpful answer.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he can tell this House how one can make people do what they do not want to do? There are intelligent people on the other side, and particularly on the Liberal Benches. Could he ask them how they would deal with this situation if they had the authority?
§ A noble Lord: Take away the union cards!
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, somebody said: "Shoot them!"—
§ Several noble Lords: You did!
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, it was the noble Baroness; it was not me. I asked what the Tories wanted, because I was not sure. But let us be sensible about this. We are having discussions. There is a problem of law. There has been a test case, as noble Lords know. I think we should leave it at that.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, does my noble friend realise that when he asked certain Members of this House to be sensible that was a revolutionary request? The first thing they might do would be to establish the facts. Is it not entirely mischievous to want to invoke the law when we know that many of the instances quoted are complete fabrications? If the noble Lord wishes I shall be willing to give the House examples.
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I am grateful for the support of my noble friend.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, while appreciating that over-reaction by any of the parties concerned with the present troubles is a mistake and could make things worse, is not the noble Lord the Leader of the House also aware that the patience of the people of this country is 689 fast running out and that they are waiting day by day and hour by hour to see some lead from the Government?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, the Government have given a lead. We are anxious to see a settlement concluded which will be honourable and fair to all sides.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the whole of the policy of the Government relies on the code of practice and that, if that is being broken and not honoured, then it is an affront to the whole of society and to the nation? Will the noble Lord explain why, if this is so, the Government still refuse to seek with the other Parties in trying to get some form of common agreement?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, in my initial reply I said that we were having discussions with the unions concerned and with TUC representatives on all aspects of the present industrial situation, including picketing. We have had these talks and they are still continuing. I cannot go further than that. I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that we, as a Government, are as anxious as anyone to see these disputes settled.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, I was referring to political Parties. My right honourable friend Mrs. Thatcher offered the Government to talk about the situation, which is of concern to the whole nation. Why will the Government not accept that?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, we believe that the right way is to have talks with those, such as the TUC, who are immediately concerned. And those talks are continuing.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, will the Government take heart from the results of the latest opinion poll which show that 80 per cent. of their supporters and of the trade unions wish the Government to govern instead of hoping that better things will result?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I do not think that a reply to such a question would be very helpful in the present situation.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite the lugubrious supplementary questions from the other side of the House, Britain still has a sense of humour? This morning I travelled to the Vale of Health from Hampstead where a vast sign read "Vale of Health" and about ten yards beyond it was a sign saying "Here is a place where you can dump your rubbish!"
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, will not the noble Lord convey to his colleagues that we on this side at least—and, I think, those on the Liberal Benches—regard this as a national crisis and do not regard it as satisfactory that private conversations should take place all the time and that the great political Parties of this country, who are being asked by the Government to adopt a restrained attitude, should not be taken into the Government's confidence at all?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I carefully note what the noble and learned Lord has said. Surely, it is right that the Government should have discussions with the TUC. Noble Lords opposite also did this when they were involved in disputes. For that reason, let us see what happens. We hope to get this settled.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, will the noble Lord the Leader of the House agree that these problems need to be solved in a generally acceptable way and that it is therefore essential that the Government in their deliberations should give as much weight to the views of the CBI as to those of the TUC?
§ Lord PEARTMy Lords, I agree that all people connected with industry, employers, employees and their representatives, the CBI and the TUC, should be involved.