HL Deb 06 February 1979 vol 398 cc582-6

2.45 p.m.

Lord SAINT OSWALD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what are their intentions with regard to convening an All-Party Conference to negotiate the form of peaceful transition to majority rule through universal suffrage, as they have proposed, in view of the repeatedly expressed willingness of the Executive Council of Rhodesia to attend such a Conference avoiding further damaging delay.

The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)

My Lords, the Government have accepted the advice of Mr. Cledwyn Hughes that a meeting of all the parties now would end in failure. We shall continue our efforts to narrow the differences between the parties and to prepare the ground for a successful conference at the earliest opportunity. My right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has recently held consultations on Rhodesia with Mr. Vance in Washington.

Lord SAINT OSWALD

My Lords, I think it will surprise the House that the noble Lord should not have taken the occasion to refer to the recent referendum in which the white population voluntarily handed over to black majority rule. In the light of that entirely favourable and satisfactory decision, and in the shadow of the vindictively negative remark of the Government on this occasion, will the noble Lord agree that I am reasonable in taking it that unless the Marxist forces are triumphant the Government will not be satisfied in any solution for Rhodesia-Zimbabwe?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, with regard to the last part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, my answer is, certainly not; that is not the criteria on which Her Majesty's Government's policy in regard to Rhodesia is being operated. Every action of ours has been designed to draw all parties concerned to the negotiating table. As to the impact of the recent elections in Rhodesia, I would ask the noble Lord to consider—

Lord SAINT OSWALD

They were not elections—

Several noble Lords: Order, order!

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

With regard to the recent elections, which presumably were held in a reasonable and quiet manner, I would ask the noble Lord to consider very carefully whether those elections, based on the present constitution, will command support in Rhodesia as a whole, from all the people of Rhodesia, or indeed in the international community and the international authority as a whole. Both those criteria must be satisfied by any elections held in Rhodesia.

Lord SHINWELL

My Lords may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware—as I am sure he is—that there has been a great deal of talk about the promotion of a successful all-party conference but so far without much success? Let us suppose that in the absence of a successful conference in the foreseeable future—I hope that this will not be regarded as an ill-founded or merely hypothetical assumption—elections take place in Rhodesia shortly with a decision that the proposed Government should be acceptable, which means no discrimination of any kind. Would it not be desirable then to consider both ignoring the whole question of illegality and the like and assisting in the stabilisation of the newly-found, created Rhodesia?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, certainly my noble friend lays down the requisite basis for such a procedure, and I find it very difficult to disagree with him. The trouble is that free and fair elections in Rhodesia cannot be held without the co-operation and the support of all the parties concerned; and some of them are outside Rhodesia, perforce. Secondly, conditions in Rhodesia, in the absence of the goodwill of all concerned, in a country 90 per cent. of which is under martial law, are hardly conducive to free and fair elections. So one could go on. The first requirement is to get all parties together around a table to negotiate, in good faith, a transitional régime—and I will not delay the House on the details; the House understands this perfectly well—so that proper elections, observed and attested by an international body, can be held, fully supported by all the people of Rhodesia as to their conduct and their outcome.

Lord HOME of the HIRSEL

My Lords, is the noble Lord not in effect saying that, as long as Mr. Nkomo refuses to join in any negotiations, that amounts to a veto on any progress in Rhodesia at all, and is that not a totally sterile and hopeless position for the Government to adopt?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, it must be the aim to get all the substantial parties to the situation to any meaningful negotiation, and that must include Mr. Nkomo. It may well be that at the moment Mr. Nkomo is recalcitrant on attending such a meeting. He has changed his mind more than once. Indeed, I am told that the Salisbury Group is at the moment prepared to attend such a meeting, but throughout most of last year they stood out against it. We must never assume, in regard to any of the parties concerned, that what they say now is necessarily what they will always say.

Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON

But, my Lords, what was the point of the Cledwyn Hughes mission? Will the noble Lord tell us, now that he has had the Cledwyn Hughes mission, that Cledwyn Hughes has told him that they will not come to a conference and that the Popular Front, in view of the relations between Nkomo and Mugabe, is not an alternative Government but only an alternative civil war? He will recognise that, within the human condition, government is the alternative to anarchy and that Smith is the best Government they have got.

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, if I may reply to my noble friend, the point of the Cledwyn Hughes mission was to find out on the spot whether an initiative by the British Prime Minister calling a conference in London of all those concerned had a hope of succeeding. I recall that on the other side of the House—it may not be in this particular House—it was said, "This is a once-and-for-all move; we had better find out if this can succeed". Mr. Hughes applied himself in a painstaking and thorough manner to this one question, and made an objective and well presented report saying, "It is not on at the present moment, but when circumstances are more propitious then Her Majesty's Government, and the Prime Minister in particular, would be well advised to grasp the opportunity immediately"; and the plan is to respond entirely in those terms. As soon as the circumstances are propitious, the Prime Minister, with my right honourable friend, will move to convene such a conference, and I hope it will be in London.

Lord GLADWYN

My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that we on these Benches feel that there is in fact no prospect of a successful outcome to any all-party conference until such time as the present régime in Rhodesia admits that there is a quite undue white preponderance for participation in the prospective new constitution, and are prepared to modify their view in that respect?

Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a bull point. It is a fact that the much-vaunted constitution and electoral and parliamentary arrangement has built into it a wholly repugnant preponderance based on racial prejudice.

Several noble Lords: No!

Lord PEART

My Lords, I hope noble Lords will feel that I am under some difficulties. There are two more Questions, two Statements and a lot of business still to come. I would hope that noble Lords will appreciate this. Let us proceed.

Lord SAINT OSWALD

My Lords, we are talking about the future of a country.

Lord PEART

My Lords, I accept that, but the noble Lord knows that he can raise this again.

Lord GORE-BOOTH

My Lords—

Several noble Lords: No!

Lord PEART

My Lords, I hope we can proceed. I think I have the feeling of the House on this. I think so, really.

Several noble Lords: No!

Lord PEART

My Lords, I hope we can proceed.