§ 3.5 p.m.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what consultations have taken place with the Government of the United States on strategic arms limitation; and whether they are satisfied that the draft agreement now being discussed adequately safeguards the interests of the European members of NATO.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, the United Slates Government has consulted closely at all stages within the Alliance on the progress of the SALT negotiations. We are satisfied that the interests of the European members have been adequately safeguarded, and we are confident that the new agreement when it is made will be an important contribution to stability and détente.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, I should like to ask him a supplementary question which covers two main points. Is he satisfied that this treaty can be adequately verified when it is finally negotiated in order to ensure that there is no cheating by either side? Secondly, can he assure the House that the interests of Europe are safeguarded, especially in the context of the Backfire Bomber, which I understand is to be left outside the provisions of the treaty, and the mobile nuclear missiles which the Soviet Union has targeted on cities in Europe? In connection with that, is he satisfied that the provisions for the limitation on the Cruise missile also adequately safeguard the security interests of the people of Western Europe?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, perhaps I may refer first to the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question. As a former Minister himself with a distinguished record of service in this very field, I know that he will not expect me to go into detail on either SALT II or what is likely to be the agenda for SALT III. However, I can assure him that already, in anticipation of the fairly imminent agreement on SALT II, consideration is being given to the agenda for SALT III. On the first point he made—and I am very glad that he raised this point of verification—I would draw the attention of your Lord-ships to President Carter's statement in his recent State of the Union message. He said:
We have very sophisticated proven means—including our satellites—to determine for ourselves whether the Soviet Union is meeting its treaty obligations. I will sign no agreement that cannot be verified".
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, if it is a fact—and the noble Lord will tell me whether or not this is so—that under the draft agreement, signed by Mr. Gromyko and Mr. Vance last December in Vienna, the Americans entered into an obligation not to communicate to their NATO Allies any technological details about the manufacture of the Cruise missile, is it not high time that the European members of NATO, and notably the major members of the Community, got together to pool their technique, if necessary to make this important defensive missile themselves?
§ Lord GORONWY- ROBERTSMy Lords, I am sure that there is general agreement that both technological co-operation and other co-operation within NATO can always be improved. On the first point made by the noble Lord—and I cannot go into detail—I would repeat the very carefully considered Answer which I made to the extremely important Question put by my noble friend Lord Chalfont. I said:
The United States Government has consulted closely at all stages within the Alliance on the progress of the SALT negotiations".That was the first point. The second point was whether the interests of the European members have been adequately safeguarded. On behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I have given an unequivocal affirmative answer on both points.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, my noble friend, in the course of his reply to my noble friend Lord Chalfont, said that he cannot be expected to go into detail; but some detail is surely essential. May I therefore ask him whether the strategic arms limitation understanding, which could be modified at any time if the Soviet Union decided so, is likely to cause any reduction in our conventional forces associated with NATO? We ought to have an assurance of that kind.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot give such an assurance, but certainly one can join in the constructive hope that agreement in one sector of arms control can only affect favourably possible agreement in another sector. If indeed SALT II, and certainly SALT III, leads to a reduction in strategic armouries, then conceivably the chances for a reduction in conventional arms, particularly in Central Europe, may be made more possible. That is as far as my noble friend would go if he were still Minister of Defence, and that applies to the point he made about detail. I recall as a young Member of Parliament studying at his feet when he was a distinguished Secretary of State for Defence, when many a time he said that he too could not give too much detail about questions of this sort.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, is not the noble Lord's reply a little complacent? Is not the SALT agreement in fact an agreement by the two great Powers not to defend themselves against the other Power's second strike capacity; not, in fact, to use counter force? Is not the principle and idea behind it that if both leave their breasts bare, it is as certain as anything can be that neither will provoke the blame? But, so far as Europe is concerned, does that not mean that NATO is now a trip-wire without a gun?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend either has not listened to the considered reply I gave to Lord Chalfont's Question or prefers to give his own somewhat individual interpretation of it. The fact remains that at all stages there was full consultation by the Americans with their NATO allies. In addition to there being consultation at all stages, naturally it embraced in 328 particular those aspects of the American/ Russian discussions which clearly affected Europe as well as other members of NATO.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, has the noble Lord, and have the Government, studied the recent book brought out by one of our most distinguished Generals, Sir John Hackett, and have they taken on board the urgent lessons to be learned from it?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I have myself obtained a copy of that book, if it is the same one. It is a projection into the future about what might well happen. I have not completed my own study of the book but I can assure the noble and learned Lord that there is a very fair circulation for it in the localities which I frequent.
§ Lord CHALFONTMy Lords, while I should not wish to prolong this exchange unduly, may I return to one point in the Minister's answer to my supplementary question concerning verification, in which he mentioned that President Carter had called in aid the satellite reconnaissance missile as a means of verifying an arms control treaty. Is he aware that a satellite photograph is totally ineffective in verifying an arms control treaty, because although a satellite can photograph a missile it can neither tell you how many warheads there are in a missile nor how far that missile will go, which is an essential part of the proposed SALT II agreement?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, my noble friend asked me whether I am aware; I think he might equally ask whether President Carter is aware of these facts. I have no doubt that, like us, the Americans study with great care what my noble friend writes and says on these matters, and particularly, if I may say so, his article of 31st October, and what he has to say about satellites. All I should say at this Box this afternoon is that clearly all these considerations, technological and otherwise, have been fully borne in mind in the exchanges between our American allies and the Russians. At all stages we have been consulted, and it is the considered view of Her Majesty's Government that, as a result, 329 the interests of the European members, including ourselves, have been adequately safeguarded.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, in conclusion may I ask whether all the European allies of America are as satisfied as Her Majesty's Government that European interests are being fully safeguarded in the forthcoming treaty?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I really could not answer for every other member of NATO. However, from time to time we do talk to our friends and allies in NATO. As a result, we are able to say that we are satisfied that the European members of NATO believe that they are adequately safeguarded by these agreements.