STIRLING DISTRICT COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL (Hansard, 13 December 1979)

§ The MINISTER of STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (The Earl of Mansfield)
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

§ Lord ROSS of MA RNOCK
My Lords, can the noble Earl tell me why we have these three Bills? This is the first of three. Every word in them is the same, every comma is in the right place and it really is a matter of changing the function of Scottish local government, including that of these three district councils, in regard to dealing with stray dogs. Under the 1906 Act that was the responsibility of the police. If the police are not doing their job in this respect, then why is it that within this Bill they continue to be given the task with local authorities? I do not necessarily disapprove of the Bill, but we need some explanation as to why we should have each district council in turn coming up with a confirmation Bill, which must be very expensive to them. After all, we should be concerned about their expenses in these days.
Perhaps the Minister can tell me how many district councils have already had such a Private Bill. Secondly, can he tell me how many more are coming? There is one other point which I should like to ask him about. In the year 1906, which is the year of the Act that is being suitably amended to include the district councils of Stirling and, later on, of Dumbarton 1380 and of Kilmarnock and Loudoun, there was a register to be kept by the police. Now, so far as I can see from the Bill, there are to be three registers; one kept by the police, one kept by the council and one kept by an institution to which the stray dogs may be sent. Of course, we have the best bargain of the century here, because in 1906 it cost one shilling to see the register and it will now cost lop. Taking the change in the value of money, and what happens in yet another confirmation Bill that we have before us, there is little difference.
Can the Minister tell me about these points? Would it not have been better to have a Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill with this included, without putting the local authorities to all this expenditure? Lastly, since we are so worried about the minimal cost of milk for children, will this be relevant expenditure for rate support grant, and how much will it add to the rate support grant bill that the Government are so anxious to cut down?

§ The Earl of MANSFIELD
My Lords, I suppose that it falls to me to congratulate the noble Lord on what I imagine to be his first speech from the Opposition Front Bench. The compendiousness of my answer would have been a good deal greater if he had actually told me that on these somewhat esoteric matters he wanted to attract the attention of your Lordships. The position, as I understand it, is that the responsibility for the control of dogs—and if one looks at the schedule to the Bill one can see how it is designed and how it is set out—is, in effect, passing from the police to the district councils. One can see the various powers which under the Dogs Act are now to be vested in the district council.
This procedure is something which obtains in some parts of Scotland but not in others, and it is a matter for the district councils themselves. I am afraid that I frankly do not know the conditions in which these various district councils have made application, as it were, for legislation of this type. It is a matter for them to organise themselves in the way that they consider best, in the absence of all-embracing legislation. I really do not think I can reassure the noble Lord any further than that. I have no information as to the cost of this. I really do not 1381 think that it would be a matter for the rate support grant, and I certainly do not think that it will take any milk out of the mouths of the children of Dumbarton or of any of the other places.

§ Lord ROSS of MARNOCK
But, my Lords, surely the noble Earl can tell me who is going to bear the expenditure. The expenditure is going to be borne by the local authority. The Government have approved of their spending the money. At the present time, they have no place in which to keep the dogs. They will need dog catchers to catch them. It is going to be a matter of local authority expenditure. Surely the noble Earl can tell me whether or not this is relevant expenditure.

§ The Earl of MANSFIELD
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I really doubt whether the noble Lord is in order with these persistent questions. Perhaps I may be permitted to write to the noble Lord with the information which he seeks.