§ 3.25 p.m.
§ Lord SANDFORDMy Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. I introduced this Bill at Second 1369 Reading in February on behalf of the Devon County Council and thereafter no fewer than 14 petitions were raised against it. It had, therefore, a particularly thorough investigation at Committee. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking our Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for the thorough and patient consideration that they gave to the Bill. After that consideration, the Bill emerged virtually unchanged. A few points have been conceded by the promoters; one was accepted by them on the recommendation of the Committee.
My Lords, there are two schools of thought about the management of our countryside. One is that we proceed by way of controversy and conflict, eventually ending up with a compromise of sacrifices that is imposed by order from above or from outside by someone like the Secretary of State. Another view is that we proceed by patient negotiation, careful consultation and finally reach an agreement among most of the parties concerned that confers considerable benefits all round and which can subsequently be made legally binding, as this Bill seeks to do in the case of the agreement on the Dartmoor Commons.
In the course of this Parliament, we shall be dealing with at least one Bill, the Countryside Bill, in which the choice of these two methods will have to be considered carefully by your Lordships' House and by another place. I think that most of us believe that the second method of proceeding, by agreement, is greatly to be desired as compared with the first. I should like therefore to take this opportunity briefly of applauding the management agreement that is incorporated in this Bill. There have been management agreements for the management of moorland, the countryside, and commons before; and there will be many others in the future; and better provision for them is to be included in the Countryside Bill. But this Bill probably will be the greatest, the most extensive and the best-contrived that we shall see for many years.
I should like therefore at its Third Reading to commend it to the House. In some senses, this Bill will be seen as a model. It is a model of what can be achieved by this approach. It is an 1370 example of the very great benefit that can be secured by this approach, and it is a model which demonstrates that it is possible to proceed by Private Bill despite many people feeling that primary legislation is needed before much can be done about the better management of commons. On the other hand, the Bill is definitely not a model in the sense of being a blueprint which can be adopted in any other part of the country. It could not be adopted as it stands by Brecon Beacons or the Yorkshire Dales or anywhere else. They are geographically different: their commons rights are different and all the local circumstances are different. The attitudes of the farmers and of the amenity lobbies and so on differ in different parts of the country. But it is a model and a very good model in the three senses that I have mentioned, and for that reason I have no hesitation once again in commending it to your Lordships' House.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a—(Lord Sandford.)
§ 3.29 p.m.
§ Viscount BROOKEBOROUGHMy Lords, I speak from Northern Ireland, and I am very fearful seeing the number of Devon Peers here, because of their "ninety men of valour". I go by boat from Belfast to Liverpool on many occasions and I hope the next time I come that I am not sunk by a Devon cruiser. While I applaud very much all that the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, has said, I am going to put my finger on what I believe to be a vital omission in this particular Bill. I speak from 27 years' experience on a county council and from having been in the chair and having prepared a council for the rush of tourists which was bound to come. Therefore, my approach to all these matters must be with regard to the preservation of the great assets that we have.
I speak on behalf of the British Horse Society of whose governing body I am a member. We are the national body which is accepted by the Government as being the spokesman for the horse sport and horse industry in nearly all matters except for racing. If I tell your Lordships of the extent of our bailiwick, our authority, it is, I think, appropriate to quote from the report of a British market 1371 research carried out between 1971 and 1976. It showed that, during that period, the number of people riding had increased by 16 per cent. This gives an absolutely staggering total. I am sure that noble Lords when they go through the countryside, especially on the outskirts of towns, will have seen the enormous growth of ponykeeping and horsekeeping. It amounts to 1½ million people in this country who ride. These are not prosperous people; they are what are called Class C and Class D in the economy. They are not privileged. They do not have the right of access to private land and therefore the natural place for these people to ride—especially in the future, because the increase will continue—will be on areas such as common land.
The Royal Commission recognised this in paragraph 314 and 318, when they stated that sensible rights of access should be given and that sensible restrictions should then be placed upon the users of common lands. I support what the noble Lord, Land Sandford, said: that this Bill is a model of good management in so many ways. However, if it is a model, we are afraid that one of the elements that will be taken is the exclusion of the statutory right of horsemen to exercise on Dartmoor.
Two classes of people had de facto rights on Dartmoor for hundreds of years. This is not a new right in any way. One class was pedestrians and the other was horsemen. Now this Bill has changed the status of the two. There is a de jure right in Clause 9 of the Bill. It gives an absolute legal right to pedestrians and the horsemen no longer have any rights on the Commons except those expressed in Clause 12. This merely recognises a rather vague right. It is my belief that if one wants to preserve the countryside where a de facto right has existed for hundreds of years, then one must give a de jure right and then legislate to exercise control by by-laws in that way. That has been recognised in almost every other clause of the Bill.
The British Horse Society recognises the problems that are created by this phenomenal growth of horses and the keeping of horses. In days of yore when the legal right was established it was expected that the parson would go from 1372 one village church to another along the bridle path—and we all know what damage is done when 12 riders go galloping down a path following three or four inches of rainfall. We recognise that. We believe that conservation is best served by sensible regulation and by education. However, the problem will not go away. As the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, said, we shall be having more Bills dealing with common land; and, in my view, we have to face this problem. The sport of riding is a marvellous one. We who are riders do not cause traffic jams on the way to the football terraces. Indeed, we do not have riots on the football trains. We do not crowd the roads on the way to the coast. It is a good and growing sport which should be encouraged.
I must ask the Government to state their case. If this is going to be a model, do they approve the dropping of the Royal Commission's recommendations on the access to common lands? I deplore the absence of this statutory right in this Bill, but I must go along with the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, in congratulating the promoters on the rest of the Bill for its comprehensive and very sensible approach to all affairs.
§ 3.34 p.m.
§ Viscount AMORYMy Lords, I should like to add a word to what my noble friend Lord Brookeborough has said. As a Devonian, I strongly applaud any sensible measures to look after the Dartmoor National Park, an amenity which is enjoyed by thousands of people far beyond the bounds of my own county. Last night my noble friend Lord Brooke-borough told us that County Fermanagh was the finest and most beautiful county in the British Isles. If I accept that. may I then say that without any doubt whatever Devon is the second finest and most beautiful county in the British Isles.
Like my noble friend, I am still a little unhappy about the rights of horseriders in relation to the rights of pedestrians. Pedestrians have full rights of access. Horsemen now, it seems, are not quite to have full rights. They are going to be subject to certain restrictions; and unless these are applied with sympathy and understanding they may involve discrimination against a very worthy type of user.
1373 The Bill, while tolerating horseriders, does not give them the same statutory right of access in the future as pedestrians. Reading between the lines of the Bill, I cannot help but get an impression that the riders do not seem to be positively welcomed. Perhaps in the words of the late P. G. Wodehouse, if they are not disgruntled about the riders, they do not seem to be positively" gruntled ". I may be doing the authorities an injustice. I agree with my noble friend Lord Brooke-borough that riding is an excellent and healthy form of recreation. Almost all of this area is entirely suitable for this activity. Horseriders, from my experience, are generally responsible people and will respect a few sensible and understandable rules. They are unlikely to do any wilful damage. Can they not have the same statutory rights of access as pedestrians? I hope that my noble friend Lord Sandford—who knows a great deal about the problems of our national parks—will comfort and satisfy me that my fears are groundless.
§ 3.36 p.m.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, it may be helpful—as my noble friend Lord Brookeborough asked for a Government view—to say that the Department of the Environment have examined this Bill very carefully. The Secretary of State has reported to Parliament about it and his points have been met in Committee. We have no remaining objections; but it is of course for the promoters of this Bill and my noble friend Lord Sandford to persuade Parliament—yourselves—that the powers they are seeking in the Bill are justified.
As regards the horseriding side, the promoters of the Bill stress that they have no intention of reducing horseriding, but only to ensure that it takes place without damage to the park and without undue interference to others who are enjoying recreational facilities. Furthermore, I must tell your Lordships that for technical reasons general access can only be given to horseriders by withdrawing the Bill and reintroducing it completely. We do not consider, therefore, that the Bill seeks unreasonably to regulate or curtail horseriding or any other sport. With regard to the point in the Royal Commission's report to which my noble friend referred, I will ask for indulgence 1374 and write to my noble friend further on the matter. I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Sandford for introducing the Bill and I wish him all success.
§ 3.38 p.m.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, as a Devonian and one who has probably ridden over Dartmoor more than anybody else in the House—that is subject to correction—may I say that, as I understand the Bill, there would be no disadvantage to those who are legitimately riding or hunting over Dartmoor as it is at the moment. Provisions are made to protect parts of Dartmoor from further dilapidation, to stop people from riding in places where they should not do so. Heaven knows!, there are lots of other places where they can ride, and it would be a good idea for their own safety if they do not go riding over Fox Tor Mire which Conan Doyle used in The Hound of the Baskervilles, because they would not ride any more after that!
§ 3.39 p.m.
§ Lord SANDFORDMy Lords, I do not think anybody is more "gruntled" than I am at horseriders, at the pleasure that they get from riding in the park, and at the fact that the numbers of riders enjoying the parks is increasing. But it is of course the very fact that the numbers are increasing which makes it impracticable, in the view of the Devon County Council and the National Parks Authority in particular, to continue the completely unrestricted de facto access by horse-riders all over the area with which this Bill deals.
The Devon County Council believe that they have got the balance right. They were able to convince your Lordships' committee that they had got the balance right. But I am sure they would join with me in being very willing to reconsider yet again with the British Horse Society—should they wish to petition again when this Bill goes to another place—whether the formula could be improved. I know that I speak for the promoters when I say it is their desire that this Bill should reach the statute book with the maximum agreement possible secured on it; so I can give that assurance.
I should like also to reiterate what I said in my earlier remarks to my noble 1375 friend Lord Brookeborough: namely, that this Bill is not a model or blueprint in the sense that the precise provisions which the Devon County Council think necessary for Dartmoor will necessarily apply everywhere else. There may well be other areas in the country where it will be possible for horse riders to have unrestricted de jure access as wide as the de facto access they have enjoyed hitherto. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.