§ 3.20 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on what steps they have taken together with other civilised nations in respect of the suppression of terrorism and how many terrorist organisations are connected with the Palestine Liberation Organisation.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we co-operate actively with our EEC partners and in a number of international organisations to contain and reduce the terrorist threat. There has been some evidence in the past of contacts between elements affiliated to the Palestine Liberation Organisation and other terrorist organisations. We have recently received an assurance from the Palestine Liberation Organisation leadership that any links which its affiliates may have had with the Provisional IRA have been severed and that neither the PLO itself nor any of its affiliates will establish or maintain any such links in the future.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to realise that there is very grave concern in the world—not only here but throughout the world—about this vicious and criminal set of gangsters who are at the head of this organisation, and who are masterminding for other gangsters the kind of actions they themselves commit, and that they have killed more of their own Arab people than Jews? Is he aware, for example, that the places where they concentrate in carrying on their activities are places like Lebanon, right in the heart of a Christian population which hates them as much as anybody hates gangsters of that kind? Will he please realise that the kind of promise they make is something which cannot at the present time under any circumstances be accepted and that, in conjunction with about 10 other organisations, including the IRA, they have been committing and are continuing to commit crimes against civilians and very rarely, if ever, against any military forces?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, of course we condemn terrorism wherever it may take place and under whatever guise, but the PLO itself is essentially a political organisation——
§ Lord TREFGARNEalthough I confess that the distinction between it and its terrorist affiliates is not always easy to draw. The Government condemn unreservedly all terrorist acts committed by organisations linked with the PLO.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to tell the House whether or not it is the case that Sir Ian Gilmour has met the PLO? And are we to understand from his earlier reply that assurances given by a terrorist organisation are in fact to be believed?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, with regard to the meeting which was reported by my right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal and an official of the PLO, it was a totally unplanned social encounter. It would be, I suggest, a gratuitous insult to refuse to acknowledge a fellow guest on such an occasion. It does not represent a change in the Government's policy under which recognition of the PLO and formal ministerial contacts remains difficult.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, having obtained such satisfactory assurances from the PLO, may I ask the Minister whether he will be seeking similar assurances from the Mafia and the urban guerrillas in South America?
§ Lord TREFGARNEThat is another question, my Lords.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to answer my supplementary question: Are we to understand that the assurances given by a terrorist organisation, whose industry is murder and therefore cheating, are to be believed?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, we certainly welcome the fact that the PLO have given us these assurances. We shall have to see how they turn out.
§ Lord SHINWELLMay I ask the noble Lord to explain the statement which appears in the Press this morning that his right honourable friend the Lord Privy Seal is meeting or has met a representative of the PLO, and may we be told the reason?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, as I said to my noble friend Lord Lauderdale, that was a gratuitous occasion when the meeting was quite inadvertent.
Lord JANNERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister once more whether he is prepared to take a strong attitude here against terrorism? Will he point that out with regard to the PLO, not only to this country but to the countries of the EEC who are taking attitudes, like the Lord Privy Seal took yesterday, to make the PLO, these terrorists in a civilised world, think that they are an accepted organisation?
§ Lord TREFGARNEThe noble Lord asks me to take a position on terrorism, my Lords. Of course I take a position on terrorism; we universally condemn it.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to make it absolutely clear—I am sure he will—that, like their predecessors, this Government will take every opportunity, bilaterally and internationally, of denouncing terrorism wherever it arises for whatever pretext and by whoever is responsible?
§ Lord TREFGARNEYes, my Lords, of course I will.
Lord SAINT OSWALDMy Lords, have the Government noted that at the last session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg no fewer than three Motions were tabled and carried unanimously condemning terrorism, one of which specifically related to an Israeli citizen? Do the Government not think in contrast that the fact that Yasser Arafat, the arch-terrorist himself, was invited to appear at the rostrum of the United Nations— which he did with a pistol ostentatiously strapped to his thigh—has had the effect of lowering the dignity and significance of that body?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, Mr. Arafat's appearance at the United Nations 869 was some years ago and a good deal of water has flowed under the bridge since then. Referring to the point made by my noble friend about the European Community, under the auspices of Ministers, working groups meet to exchange technical experience and information about acts of terrorism and to facilitate police co-operation and training. Closer judicial co-operation is also being studied and the EEC agreement, sometimes known as the Belian Agreement, is intended to apply the European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism among the Member States of the EEC. That agreement was signed in Dublin on 4th December and the United Kingdom has ratified the European Convention without reservation.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, as the suggestion has been made that there should be a personal condemnation of Yasser Arafat, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind the record of Mr. Begin when British soldiers were murdered by his organisation? Is he aware that it bodes ill for some of us who have to remember what happened in Palestine when the British Army was there to have to hear the one-sided comments today?
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, the noble Lord is of course quite right, but even more water has flowed under the bridge since then.
§ Lord DERWENTMy Lords, does my noble friend think that the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, really means that my noble friend the Minister should remember what happened at that time? I do not think my noble friend was born then.