§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the delay in altering the building regulations for housing to take into account better standards of thermal insulation and control of heating is preventing their adoption in new houses, and that it would be extremely costly to make such improvements at a later date.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is at present considering the need for higher standards of insulation and control of heating for domestic properties.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he say why there has been such delay in this consideration and when his right honourable friend hopes to come to a conclusion? Can he assure us that there will be higher standards of insulation?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I was not aware there had been undue delay. Continual consultations on this matter take place within the Department with many advisory bodies. There are some 300 interested bodies which have to be consulted and which are 568 giving advice all the time. When the need is seen to be there my right honourable friend will make his intentions known.
§ Lord STRABOLGIMy Lords, the noble Lord says when the need is there. Are the Government not aware that effective insulation is very important for the conservation programme in an energy crisis, on which all our future prosperity depends?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I take the noble Lord's point completely. Perhaps when I used the word "need" it was badly phrased. It is when the need is seen to make it compulsory. Any builder can build to a higher standard at the moment. We do not want compulsorily to put more expense on builders. Sometimes having extra insulation can have other side effects. We just want to be sure that we are not going to order something to be done which could have side effects.
§ Lord ELWYN-JONESMy Lords, is not the necessity to consult 300 bodies rather an excess of consultation? When will it end? Are they all contradicting each other?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the noble and learned Lord must not tempt me in this way. They are giving us advice all the time, and my right honourable friend is in receipt of all this advice all the time. We have every intention of trying to conserve every bit of energy we can. But we in this country do not have the same climate as the rest of Europe; we have a much greater humidity problem than any other country in Europe and this makes us slightly exceptional.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, what possible side effects could there be from improving the standards of new construction as opposed to trying to upgrade levels of insulation in existing buildings, where the sort of problems the noble Viscount has mentioned could arise? Is there not something very incongruous about the way we are quite prepared to spend millions of pounds on developing nuclear energy in order to match supply and demand, but are not prepared to spend a tiny fraction of that amount in 569 achieving the same objective and greater comfort to house owners by improving the standards of insulation?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Lord asked what the side effects are. These are a very technical matter which I should not like to go into here. We obviously want to conserve energy. Builders and authorities are allowed, and are able, to build to a higher standard than the minimum. What noble Lords are asking for is that the Government should make a compulsory minimum standard without being absolutely convinced that everything involved is totally necessary. Let us be quite honest. Anyone can at this moment build to a higher standard if he wishes to.
§ Viscount HANWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to say whether my interpretation of what he says is correct: that at the moment there is no immediate intention of doing anything about raising the standards of insulation for new houses? If that is the case, does he realise that a very large number of people—and I think I can say they are represented in this House—think that that is a simply shocking situation?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I think the noble Viscount has completely misinterpreted what I said. My initial Answer said that my right honourable friend is at present considering the need. Let me remind noble Lords that we have this year, in June, increased the non-domestic building minimum standards. I think it probably quite reasonable to assume that my right honourable friend might come to the same conclusion with regard to domestic dwellings. This is not a promise; it is just a surmise.
§ Lord BOWDENMy Lords, are the Government not aware of the fact that there has been neglect not only of the insulation but of what one might call the standards of construction of buildings, which is just as important? I speak, if I may be allowed to, as one who has been much concerned with the building of a university, and we are always under constant pressure to downgrade the standards of original construction, with the result that the cost of the maintenance of the buildings is very dramatically increased. This is true of insulation, and it is just 570 as true of general standards of construction, which cannot really be separated from it. May I ask whether it is the Government's intention to continue, as a result of the present shortage of cash, to construct buildings which will cost an enormous amount to keep alive, operating and standing up in the future?
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, obviously no Government want to see buildings put up that will immediately need a great deal of money spent on them. We want to have good buildings put up, just as the noble Lord's Government did, but obviously we want to do it at reasonable cost and we want the cost-effectiveness of the insulation to be seen to he there.