QUANGOS: NUMBER OF APPOINTMENTS (Hansard, 2 April 1979)

Earl ALEXANDER of TUNIS
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)
My Lords, the White Paper on Public Boards of a Commercial Character, published in December 1978 as Cmnd. 7417, contains a list of 24 people holding more than one appointment to these bodies. I regret that information on people holding more than one appointment to other bodies is not readily available, and could be provided only at considerable and disproportionate cost. There is no stipulated maximum number of appointments which may be held by any one person, but Ministers of course try to ensure that those they appoint have sufficient time for the work to be done.

Earl ALEXANDER of TUNIS
My Lords, in thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask him whether he could tell the House what is the total cost, including the administration, housing, fees, salaries and disbursements, for QUANGOs?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I am afraid that to give as much detail as that would really be too costly. We had a very full debate on this subject some time ago, as the noble Earl will know, and this matter was also raised then.

§ Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, despite the possible cost, this is information that the Government ought to know, and that it is worth the trouble of their finding out exactly how many of these positions exist and how many people hold more than one position? Is the noble Lord aware that the answer that it would cost money to obtain this information in no way diminishes the importance of getting it?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, that may well be, but, after all, we are always told that we must think in terms of costs, and each Department has instructions to keep within certain limits. The noble Lord is a very experienced parliamentarian and he knows full well that that answer would have been given even by a Conservative Minister.

§ The Earl of LAUDERDALE
My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether or not it is true that there are several thousand of these bodies?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, there is a considerable number, and we have debated this fully. I could go through a lot of names. Indeed, I was responsible for some QUANGOs, although I never sought to have political appointments made. I never regard them as political issues. There is the Milk Marketing Board, the Meat and Livestock Commission, and so on. I could go through a whole field of QUANGOs which came within my former departmental responsibility. Conservative Ministers did exactly the same as I did, as they were wise to do.

§ The Earl of LAUDERDALE
My Lords, are we not hoping that under a new Administration there will be some reform? But, when the noble Lord answers that there is a considerable number, could he not say whether it is true that there are something like 3,000 of these bodies?

§ Lord PEART
That is not far off, I would say, my Lords. If the noble Earl wants me to find the exact number for him, I will do so, but I do not think it would be fruitful.

§ Lord ORR-EWING
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Mr. Philip Holland, Member of Parliament, has today published a report which shows that there are 9,634 paid QUANGOs and 30,890 unpaid QUANGOs? If he can come to these results, surely the noble Lord could do a little homework and discover how many QUANGOs there are, how many are paid and what is the total cost to the nation? Furthermore, could the noble Lord explain why it is that these bodies have been breeding like rabbits in recent years?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I think that is a crude term to use. I think the number of QUANGOs will certainly be looked at carefully by any Government, but any Government will have to use this sort of organisation to fulfil responsibilities in a Department. Let us not forget that on these QUANGOs or boards many good, public-spirited people from all sections of our country, of all party persuasions, 1700 perform a useful service to the community.

§ Lord ALEXANDER of POTTERHILL
My Lords, I have been a member of some of these QUANGOS, and my own experience is that it cost me money to be so. I think it is unfortunate that many thousands of people—

Several noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord ALEXANDER of POTTER HILL
My Lords, I ask the Minister whether he would not agree that many thousands of people have given a great deal of public service on what are now called QUANGOS, and that the name itself is bringing what they have done into disrepute.

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. He knows from his long experience in the field of education that bodies of this kind provide a very fine service to the community.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it would avoid any criticism in your Lordships' House if we knew how many Members of your Lordships' House have more than one of these appointments?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I know that noble Lords on both sides have served on bodies of this kind. I am afraid I cannot give that information. I will try to get it, but I will find it extremely difficult.

§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY
My Lords, in view of the number of QUANGOs and the reference to their breeding habits, may I ask the noble Lord whether a sufficient number of women are appointed thereto?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords, I do not think there are enough. I do not know whether the noble Baroness wants to be on a QUANGO, but I would have thought that lady members of her quality would be needed. I think we should have more lady members, and the Government are aware of that.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS
My Lords, now that these bodies are popping up all over the place, would it not save time if we had some generate name for the occupants 1701 of these positions? Might we not call them something like "Quangaroos"?

§ Lord COTTESLOE
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that these bodies have increased, are increasing and ought to be diminished?

§ Lord PEART
My Lords I do not take that view at all. In a speech I outlined many of them in different fields of activity. They fulfil a very important function in administration, and they are responsible to major Departments. I think noble Lords will appreciate that even under a Conservative regime they existed, and did so in considerable numbers.

§ Lord LEATHERLAND
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that this system provides an avenue for public service which would otherwise have to be occupied by bureaucrats, civil servants and local government officials? Is it not a fact that there is much to be said in praise of QUANGOs; and is my noble friend aware that, if he has similar appointments to make in the early future, my name and my admirable qualifications are at his disposal?