§ 3.23 p.m.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have offered help to, or been asked for help by, the Rhodesian transitional Government in drafting a new constitution.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, we have not been asked for such assistance, nor have we offered any assistance to the régime in implementing the so-called internal settlement. However, we have shared fully with the regime and with the other parties our own views and proposals relating to the transition period to independence.
§ Lord GISBOROUGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. If technical help were to be offered and were to be accepted in a spirit of constructive goodwill, would not Her Majesty's Government be in a better position to appreciate and to allow for the difficulties being met with by the transitional Government in their efforts to implement the Six Principles, particularly in relation to the competing claims of the Matabele and the Shona, and thereby speed up the resulting state of democracy, which is the object of the policy of Her Majesty's Government?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, in the proper conditions, certainly. Those conditions are, fundamentally, that there is agreement and participation by all interested parties in the kind of operation that the noble Lord has described. I do not think that anyone on the Rhodesian scene, whether internally or externally, would find my right honourable friend Mr. Cledwyn Hughes averse to discussing every possible way in which everyone concerned can come together and do precisely what the noble Lord clearly wishes to happen in Rhodesia
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, if I understood him correctly, the Minister has said that there has been no request from 1407 Rhodesia for assistance in drafting a new constitution. Can he say whether it is still the Government's intention not to offer that kind of assistance?—because presumably both the framing of the constitution, together with the proposed registration of voters, have largely contributed to the apparently unavoidable delay in holding elections.
On the question of the registration of voters, has not the experience in South West Africa—and the same applies to New Zealand—to be noted?—where a very large proportion of Africans can neither read nor write, yet there they claim to have achieved an 80 per cent. registration of all potential voters. Would it not be advantageous for the Government to offer assistance on these matters, which was recommended quite some time ago?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, with every respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that this is quite the time or the conditions in which we could offer such assistance. However, I can assure both him and the House that, given the conditions which I indicated in my reply to his noble friend Lord Gisborough—namely, the agreement and participation of all those concerned in an all-party arrangement—the British Government, of course, would be very prepared to assist such a procedure. This is exactly what my right honourable friend is trying to achieve in Southern Africa: to bring people together, to agree and then to participate. I do not think that his very difficult task would be eased if we were to offer to one participant a one-sided offer of support and assistance. I do not wish to say anything which would make his task more difficult than it undoubtedly is. The short answer is that, given the conditions which I have indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough, certainly the British Government will be forthcoming in giving every possible assistance to an all-party agreement.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is not the greatest hope of an acceptable solution still a conference at which all the parties are represented on the basis of the American and British proposals? In the present situation, would not an offer of this kind prejudice the holding of such a conference?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes; I think so. In somewhat more restrained words I was endeavouring to indicate that, if we were to make any offer now, it might perhaps prejudice the success of the present mission. I join with my noble friend in hoping that we aim at an all-party conference—he is quite right—which by agreement, presaging full participation, will make it possible for this country, as it wants to do, to offer every possible assistance to the new national regime in Zimbabwe to go ahead.
Lord INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, when he speaks of an all-party conference, he includes the party led by Mr. Mugabe, who has publicly published a death list?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, yes, undoubtedly. The noble Lord knows perfectly well that he is at least as historically erudite as I am. That is not saying very much, but I am quite sure that he knows. I am saying that the noble Lord knows very well that some of the most successful solutions of situations analogous to this have resulted from our accepting to the conference table everybody who is concerned with a solution. The only test of anybody coming to the conference table—and I am quite sure that the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, and my right honourable friend Mr. Cledwyn Hughes would apply this—is if they are prepared to sit down to negotiate now a peaceful settlement and let bygones be bygones on both sides.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that surely the situation is that both Mr. Mugabe and Mr. Nkomo have refused to go to a conference while the present multiracial Government in operation in Rhodesia is in the process of working out a constitution? Surely what we want, if they ask for it, is to give them assistance in making their constitution a good one? Are we going to refuse to do that until two other gentlemen from outside the country decide to turn up?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSYes, my Lords, of course we are, because the 1409 best constitution on paper and in motivation is valueless unless it carries the substantial proportion of the people concerned with it. We have tried this before—as, indeed, have other countries—but it has not succeeded. There is a place for Mr. Nkomo, Mr. Mugabe, and everybody else who, in their own way, have fought for the independence of a national Zimbabwe, at the conference table. It is on that basis that we should go forward.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, has the noble Lord read the appeal in a Times letter today—albeit sadly possibly the last edition of The Times—from Chief Chirau who asks for just this help? If it was offered, surely in the event of the transitional Government refusing it, they would alienate a lot of people who are basically on their side. If they accept it, then that expertise is in the House, and could be quickly picked up and used if a settlement, as we all hope, is reached after Mr. Cledwyn Hughes' negotiations?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I echo the last few words. If a settlement is not achieved on that basis, certainly the assistance is here and forthcoming. That is understood. I hope that everything said in this country, and in Rhodesia, indicates to everybody concerned that that is the basis on which this difficult but worthwhile mission has proceeded.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, could the noble Lord assure us that his right honourable friend—
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)My Lords, I think we have had a good innings on this. We do not have any sex differentiation in this House, and I hope the noble Baroness will put her question shortly. I think that the House would wish us to finish.
§ Baroness MACLEOD of BORVEMy Lords, could the noble Lord assure us that his right honourable friend, who is now on this important mission to Africa—and I am certain we all wish him well—will also be visiting Mr. Smith and seeking his friendship in this particularly difficult problem in Africa at this time?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, certainly Mr. Hughes will be visiting everybody he thinks has a contribution to make to a peaceful and lasting solution.