§ 2.35 p.m.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now considered the representations made to the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection by the National Consumer Council relating to the excessive powers of water authorities in relation to the consumer of water; and whether they now propose to take steps to improve the position of the consumer as against these monopoly suppliers of a basic necessity.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk)My Lords, the Government are considering the three main points in the National Consumer Council's letter of 13th October: consumer representation on water authorities; payment of water bills by instalments; and the disconnection of those who have not paid their 1290 bills. On the first, a majority of members of water authorities are nominated directly by local authorities in the region and the remainder are appointed by Ministers who ensure that important interests such as industry and recreation are represented. Moreover, the Government are committed to making progress in appointing a specific consumer member to each authority. On the other two points, the Government are awaiting the views of the National Water Council, and will then be in a position to reply to the National Consumer Council.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, does not the noble Baroness accept that there is some validity in the National Consumer Council's point that, even with the appointment which she has announced of one consumer representative to each water authority, there is no separate body representative of consumers such as, by way of Consumer Council or otherwise, exists in I think all the other publicly-owned public utilities?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I think one really has to wait until we get the response of the National Water Council. As I think the noble Lord is aware, the members of the water authorities themselves represent a very wide range of interests. I would have thought that, with the members they have now appointed by the local authorities or nominated by the Secretary of State, and with the consumer members who are to be appointed, we should wait to see whether that in fact meets the case before we start setting up further bodies.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while I share the noble Baroness's dislike for setting up further bodies, may I ask whether she will not accept that once you have appointed someone with general responsibility to any public board of this kind that person naturally becomes somewhat allied with it, and there is perhaps a case, where we are dealing with monopoly suppliers of a necessity of life, for having somebody with specific, separate and identifiable responsibility for consumer interests?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I do not think I can add very much, except to say that the situation in the water industry is rather different from that in the other 1291 nationalised industries. I think one can say that the water authorities are rather different from other nationalised industries in that they themselves have many of the characteristics of consumer councils.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in the appointment of Consumer Council members, she will bear in mind the interests of the fish farmers, and that it is very important that the water authorities and the fish farmers should work together?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I know that there are certainly farmers on the water authorities, but I am not sure about fish farmers. I will look into that.
§ Lord CLIFFORD of CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, can the Minister persuade water authorities to pay more attention to the views and expertise of the local associations of parish councils, who really know more about water supply than all these boards put together?
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I am sure they will make their views known to the local water authorities, and if they do it along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, I am sure they will get a hearing.
§ Lord BOWDENMy Lords, is it not true that the water boards have a degree of almost complete autonomy, that they fix their own charges without reference to anybody, and that no one (this is true so far as I know) representing any democratically-elected body has any right to inspect their accounts? They finally produce an imprest on the people to whom they supply the water which these people are obliged to pay without having any right at all to assess its validity or merit.
§ Baroness BIRKMy Lords, I do not think that is true. I do not think my noble friend is right, because they are accountable, first of all to the consumers through their membership; they are also accountable through Ministers to Parliament. They are also subject to investigation by the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. Their charges are subject to the Price Commission and their accounts are subject to scrutiny by the district auditor. I think that is sufficient control.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend—and I do so as an occasional consumer of water— whether it is a fact that this Question suggests the appointment of still more QUANGOS, and is not that contrary to the expression of opinion we had in the House last week?
§ Baroness BIRKIt probably is, my Lords.