§ 2.56 p.m.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, when HMS "Ark Royal" is taken out of commission, consideration will be given to its use for young offenders, until such time as other, very necessary accommodation can be provided.
§ The MINISTER or STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)My Lords, the possibility of using decommissioned ships has been considered before but there are many difficulties about using a ship as a prison, borstal or detention centre. An additional consideration in respect of "Ark Royal" is that the material condition of this very large and complex vessel will deteriorate rapidly after her paying off date and maintenance costs will become prohibitive. As resources become available we shall be providing accommodation for young offenders ashore which has been designed for the purpose.
Baroness VICKERSMy Lords, will the noble Lord ask Her Majesty's Government to convey our thanks to all those who served on this magnificent ship for their excellent service and also to the many people in the Devonport dockyard who have kept her afloat all these years? When will the noble Lord be able to say whether this ship is going to be destroyed as the "Eagle" was, or is going to be used for any other purpose other than the one I suggest?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I would certainly agree with the noble Baroness on the first two points she put to me. On the last point, all I can do today is to reply to the precise Question she put to me; namely, whether "Ark Royal" should be turned into a penal establishment. Our view on that is that it should not be.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to give 1132 sympathetic consideration to this question because I remember when I was an active magistrate how difficult it was to deal with the young offender for want of accommodation? It need not be called a penal establishment; it need not be called a borstal. It could be called "Victory", and that might do the young people some good.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, our view so far as this particular proposal is concerned in respect of "Ark Royal" is that the cost of making it into any form of establishment of the kind proposed by the noble Baroness and her noble friend Lady Vickers would be prohibitive, and for that reason we do not support the view.
§ Baroness FAITHFULLMy Lords, if the Minister considers "Ark Royal" as being too big and too expensive, may I ask whether he would agree that the little ships could be used for the purpose proposed? I cite in particular the trawler "Harriet" beached on the coast at Millom which is supposed to take children in need and in trouble.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, that is a very different question. Obviously I have no knowledge of the vessel to which the noble Baroness refers. All I can say today is that the Prison Department staff who worked on HMS "Maidstone" found that experience not at all satisfactory, and therefore we are not predisposed to favour this particular proposal.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, is it not odd that the British are abolishing their aircraft carriers at a time when the Russians and the Americans are both building them?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHThat, my Lords, does appear to be a slightly different question.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I wonder whether in future the noble Lord would speak a little more clearly. We appreciate his answers but it is very difficult to follow them if one swallows the words. Somehow the microphone system does not cope with it. We would like to hear what he replies in future.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if he did not hear my replies. I will, if necessary, bring a megaphone on future occasions.