§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider consulting with opposition Parties and representatives of the TUC and CBI with a view to drawing up an agreed code of practice aimed at encouraging the establishment throughout British industry of negotiating procedures under which disputes concerning the interpretation of the terms of agreements already entered into are settled by arbitration instead of industrial action.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, most agreements between employers and trade unions already contain some form of procedure for dealing with disputes arising over the interpretation of the agreements. Arbitration is frequently provided as the final stage of such procedures.
§ Lord ROCHESTERMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, so far as it goes. Would he agree that this matter is one which is not really for Party political controversy and that it would be timely for action on the general lines suggested in this Question to be taken to bring us more into line with European practice? Is it not for the Government to give a lead and some encouragement in this matter? Perhaps even more to the point, would the noble Lord join in deploring industrial action which has recently been taken before agreements have expired and in circum- 804 stances where there has been no dispute as to the interpretation of those agreements at all?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I would accept generally the importance of the noble Lord's Question. It is important. I would agree with him that this kind of question would be well taken out of Party strife. Generally speaking, so far as codes of practice are concerned, the Government do not dissent from the suggestion that codes of practice can make a useful contribution to industrial relations. Section 6 of the Employment Protection Act 1975 specifically enables ACAS to issue codes of practice:
… containing such practical guidance as the Service thinks fit for the purpose of promoting the improvement of industrial relations".So far ACAS has issued codes of practice on, one, Disciplinary Practice and Procedures in Employment; two, Disclosure of Information to Trade Unions for Collective Bargaining Purposes; and, three, Time off for Trade Union Duties and Activities. The issue of any further codes is a matter for ACAS's judgment. Ministers have no powers to give ACAS instructions as to how they carry out their statutory responsibilities. As I indicated in my reply, it is already common practice for agreements to contain a provision for arbitration.So far as the observance of agreements is concerned, to which the noble Lord made reference, the great majority of trade unionists and employers would agree that once agreements have been made they should be adhered to.
§ Lord CARRINGTONToo long!
Lord WALLACE OF COSLANYThe Government would certainly endorse this proposition. Collective bargaining would break down unless this were generally so. I recognise that in some cases unofficial action in breach of procedure may be taken in the heat of the moment, particularly where the grievances are strongly felt. Managements, as well as trade unions, sometimes breach agreements. I would say to the noble Lord who interjected, "Too long!" that this is a vitally important matter.
§ Lord CARRINGTONBut, my Lords, it is Question Time.
§ Viscount AMORYMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that one trouble is that the quite separate principles of arbitration and conciliation seem to get rather mixed up today? If the principle of true arbitration, freely entered into and binding, could be restored to its former status, it might be very helpful indeed.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I take it that the noble Viscount is really implying that agreements should be made legally binding.
§ Viscount AMORYNo, my Lords; the point that I made was that it seems very infrequent nowadays that the two parties to a difference consent to a freely entered-into agreement in favour of arbitration which will be binding on both in advance. It was that, rather than the law, that I was thinking about.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I agree with the noble Viscount that agreements entered into should be observed, and also that if agreements to enter into arbitration are made, then the findings of such arbitration should be accepted.
§ Lord JACQUESMy Lords, would my noble friend bear in mind that in the control of inflation continuity of output is as important as the amount of income? I should like also to ask whether there is not a case for a code of practice which has limited objectives; for example, the recognition of trade unions and the procedure to be followed by trade unionists before taking industrial action.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that remark as I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rochester. I feel that there is already considerable feeling on both sides on the desirability of some such code of practice, and in those circumstances I readily give an undertaking to convey your Lordships' views to the Council of ACAS for their consideration.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, is not the most important statement that has been made by my noble friend concerned with the need for observing agreements? 806 From what he has said, can he comment on the decision of a particular trade union which, in spite of an agreement which had a full month to expire, decided to engage in a conflict which has caused a great deal of trouble? Ought that not to be condemned?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, it is true that certain disputes have arisen because agreements have not been fully observed, but I should not like to go into detail on these. To some extent these matters are being resolved at the present time; it would be very unwise to make additional comment.
§ Lord CARR of HADLEYMy Lords, is it not a fact that the great majority of disputes in this country occur in breach of agreements? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord, with respect, to return to the gist of the original Question, which was: Will the Government take some initiative to encourage the greater use of arbitration to settle disputes about the terms of agreements entered into? He stated what the practice was, but the question is: Will the Government take an initiative to encourage the greater use of that form of settlement?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his supplementary question. I have said that the Government do not dissent from the suggestion that codes of practice can make a useful contribution. I have also added in the course of supplementary answers—and I am speaking now on behalf of the Government—that I will see that the full details of the exchanges that have taken place today are submitted to ACAS. That indicates that we are not against the general idea that has been put forward by the House.
§ Viscount TRENCHARDMy Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that if a code of practice such as the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, suggested had the backing of the CBI, the TUC, and indeed the Government, as his Question suggests, this would reinforce the procedures very much more effectively than referring the matters to ACAS?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I should like to say in reply to the noble Viscount that when we are talking 807 about codes of practice we must remember that, because circumstances may vary, they should be adapted and agreed for various industries. Therefore when we are talking generally of principles, actual codes of practice would have to take into account various industrial problems relating to any particular industry.
§ Lord HANKEYMy Lords, are the Government aware that many people on both sides of industry will welcome what the noble Lord has said about the desirability of agreements being executed? But is it practical to expect agreements to be executed if we pay public funds to people engaged in a stoppage regardless of whether it is in breach of agreements, substantive or procedural? Should not that be limited in some way if the strike is unconstitutional?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANYMy Lords, I am afraid that that is another question. If the noble Lord puts down a Question on that, I will endeavour to answer it.