§ 2.44 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when they intend to accept the recommendations of the appropriate Whitley Council on special increases in income for members of the nursing and midwifery professions.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, on 16th October last, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services met representatives from both sides of the Nurses' and Midwives' Whitley Council to discuss the claim that nurses and midwives should be treated as a special case for purposes of pay policy. My right honourable friend undertook to consider carefully with colleagues the arguments that had been put to him. He reminded the deputation, however, that the overriding need was to defeat inflation and that any claim to special treatment would have to be examined 647 very critically. I cannot today indicate the outcome of the consideration which is being given to this claim.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, while I thank the noble Lord very much for that at least helpful Answer, may I ask him this question. Though he did not emphasise it, the deputation got a very good welcome from the Minister who received them. Therefore, if he had not agree that they should be treated as a special case he probably would have said so; but he did not, because he seemed to agree with the point that was put forward. I do not want to enter into any particular controversy, though I am very honoured to be a vice-president of the Royal College of Nursing, and am not particularly interested in the new Bill which the Government seem to be putting forward; but can the noble Lord say whether the refusal to accept what the Minister seemed to think was a very wise request arose because of the fact that the Government have no money left? I should like an answer "Yes" or "No" to that.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Baroness always puts me in a difficult position by demanding a "Yes" or a "No", and I once proved to her quite conclusively that there are some questions you cannot answer with a plain "Yes" or a plain "No". I hope that my Department as well as every other Government Department receives deputations with some sympathy and understanding. People normally do not go on deputations unless they feel very strongly about the subject matter. My right honourable friend is sympathetic, but the nurses and the midwives are asking for special consideration. It may well be that they are entitled to it, but there are a large number of other organisations which feel that they ought to be considered as a special case. In these matters, the Government are prepared to look at the cases personally to see whether or not these requests can be met. I have only this to add: in 1970, when my right honourable friend was Minister of State at the Department of Health and Social Security, he was responsible for giving the nurses 20 per cent., and in 1974 it was this Government which gave the nurses a 30 per cent. increase in one go and backdated it to 23rd May, 1974. 648 We really understand their problem. We try to help them; and if there is anything that can be done we will try to do it.
The EARL of HALSBURYMy Lords, does the noble Lord recall that that rise of 30 per cent. only four years ago was awarded as a result of a recommendation to the Prime Minister by the committee of which I was then chairman; that it gave universal satisfaction by equating the wages of a ward sister with those of a station sergeant in the police force; and that, on a recent occasion when an increase in pay to members of the police force was announced, I asked whether that equation would be preserved for the sake of the nurses and was told that it would be a dangerous precedent? Does the noble Lord consider that there is a future for turning simple administrative decisions into dangerous precedents, the implementation of which should be postponed to the Greek Kalends?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl for chairing that committee, and he will agree that when he made that recommendation of 30 per cent. it was immediately accepted by my right honourable friend, and was backdated. Whether one can go on treating applications as special cases, I do not know. But in addition to the 30 per cent. to which the noble Earl referred, in the years 1974 and 1975 the nurses received 16.8 per cent. by way of threshold payments, and in each year afterwards they received the same increases as everybody else: in 1976, £6 a week; in 1977, not less than £2.50 and not more than £4, like everybody else; and in 1978, this year, 10 per cent.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that the decision of the Minister will not be too long delayed? Otherwise, there is a risk that the recommended increases, or otherwise, may become slightly unrealistic.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, there are no recommended increases so far as the nurses or anyone else is concerned. Obviously, this must be considered along with the claims of other groups which consider that they are special cases and in the light of the Government's determination to win the battle against inflation.
§ Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that while there are many special cases, these are very special people? May I suggest to the Minister that if it were not for nurses and midwives quite a number of the present Government and Members of this House would not be here?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I accept that; but there are very many other groups in the community who also need to be considered. I am almost tempted to say that junior Ministers in this House are grossly over-worked and disgracefully underpaid. Obviously, there are so many factors to be taken into account that it is difficult to say that one group in the community is more important than another.
Lord BROCK WAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that there is now a shortage of nurses in many hospitals and that the recruitment of nurses is disappointing? Are not the conditions under which nurses now work largely responsible for that?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, in the last few years, the number of people who have been recruited into the nursing profession organisations runs into several thousands. It is true that last year the recruitment was rather disappointing; but from April to September of this year there was an increase against the same period last year of over 40 per cent. in the recruitment of those new students who wanted to take the State-registered nursing qualifications. Last year, there was also a fall in the number of entrants who wished to take the State-enrolled nursing qualifications. This has been arrested and there has been a marked increase in these numbers during the period from July to September of this year.
§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart)—My Lords, I think we have had a pretty good—
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDEMy Lords, I thank the noble 650 Lord the Leader of the House very much for treating this as a special case. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, does not like "Yes" or "No" answers, but is he aware that, over the years—and I was in the other place for 38 years—we have always had to fight for the nurses? That also applies to my own Government—I remember voting against them as well as against this Government. Can the noble Lord say why he did not answer my question as to whether it was a matter of money with a "Yes" or "No"?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we are considering this matter to see whether the nurses can establish that they have a special case. If they have, we shall be looking around for the money.