§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have decided how the new noise insulation grant schemes for domestic dwellings around Heathrow and Gatwick Airports are to be financed and, if so, whether the method selected is that of a charge on airlines, or their passengers, or both, similar to the security levy already imposed.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, as was the case in the former noise insulation grants schemes, the new scheme for Heathrow and Gatwick will be financed by the British Airports Authority and will not involve a separate charge on airlines or their passengers.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, I am very glad to have that Answer, but does the Minister realise that, following the ominous precedent of the security levy which was a State responsibility, the airlines have been disturbed about where this might lead them? Am I correct in understanding that under no circumstances will any part of this charge fall upon airlines or their passengers?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, at this stage I could not give such a categorical assurance to my noble friend. Discussions are still proceeding as to how the money will be found and used, but I can say that it will not involve a levy as the aviation security fund did.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, can the noble Baroness be a little more explicit? She said in her original Answer that the scheme is to be financed by the British Airports Authority. I believe I am right in saying that the British Airports Authority is at present self-supporting. Therefore, is it not the case that the charges will inevitably fall upon airlines, whose landing fees finance the British Airports Authority?
§ Baroness STEDMANThey may do, my Lords, but at the moment I cannot say that they will, because discussions are still going on. The cost of the scheme is about £19 million. It is the responsibility of the British Airports Authority to put the scheme into operation and to meet the cost of it by some means. I would 419 think that this might have been a very suitable subject for my noble friend's airline users' committee to discuss with the Airports Authority so as to see how the charges can be applied and to ensure that as little as possible falls upon the consumer.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, since the main income of the British Airports Authority arises from the charges which it imposes upon the airlines, is it not quite inescapable that, if the Government arrange things in this way, the charge will ultimately be collected from the airline passengers through airport charges?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, my understanding is that the most profitable part of the British Airports Authority's undertaking is its duty-free shops, not the revenue from landing charges.
§ Baroness BURTON of COVENTRYMy Lords, as the Minister will understand from past experience, I am very wary of discussions that proceed. Is the Minister aware that her original Answer to me is completely at variance with her later replies? Did I not understand her to say that no charge would fall upon the airlines or their passengers in so far as this matter was concerned? Am I not correct in saying that she has gone on to say that she cannot give any guarantee to this effect? Does this mean that the British Airports Authority, either on its own authority or that of the Government, may well determine that this charge will have to come from the airlines and their passengers? Finally, may I say that this is not a matter for the airline users' committee, but for the Government?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, to take the last point first, I should say that I think the British Airports Authority would welcome any recommendations, suggestions or consultations from the airline users' committee, and I would think that this would strengthen the committee's power along the lines which the noble Baroness has been seeking over the past few months. In my original reply I said that the scheme would not involve a separate charge on airlines or their passengers. The levy for airport security is a separate charge on the passengers coming in; it is a separate levy. This 420 charge is not to be raised in the same way as the security levy.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I think that we are still a little in the dark on this matter. Is it or is it not the case that these funds will come from the internal resources of the BAA, or will it have to raise additional money from the Government or its customers to cover these costs?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the costs will be met by the British Airports Authority. It will be for the Authority to decide how to get the money and from where to take it.
§ Lord TREFGARNEIn other words, my Lords, have the Government given an undertaking to provide money, or is that not so?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the Government have given an undertaking and approval in relation to the insulation scheme around Gatwick and Heathrow at a cost of £19 million, and the cost is to fall upon the British Airports Authority. Discussions are taking place at the moment between various Government Departments and the British Airports Authority as to how the £19 million which is needed is to be raised. It is a much more generous scheme than the original one which is in operation at present. Under the old scheme, grants could be made for insulation for only two living rooms and two bedrooms, however large or small the house, and grants could be made only to people who were owners before 1st January 1966. If one bought a house in the Gatwick or Heathrow area after that date, one was not entitled to an insulation grant. The new scheme will be applicable to those people who are living in the areas concerned when it comes into operation, so more people will be able to benefit under this scheme than did under the old one, and it will cover insulation costs for two living rooms and all the bedrooms in a house, no matter how many there are.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that it is quite logical that, if air passengers in travelling by air make life hell for people living near airports, they should pay eventually for the damage they do?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I cannot make a governmental Statement upon that point, but my personal view is that those people who cause the pollution, whether it be noise or other pollution, are the people who ought to pay—and not the taxpayers.