§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why in their view the question of removal of the Spanish blockade of Gibraltar must not be linked with the question of possible Spanish entry into the European Economic Community.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the British Government have consistently welcomed the Spanish application to join the EEC. We consider that it would be wrong, and moreover unproductive, to link the Spanish application to progress over Gibraltar. We hope that the Gibraltar problem can be resolved as between partners and friends before Spain's formal entry into the Community.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, while I fully understand the wishes of the Government in the matter, may I ask whether it is in fact practicable to separate these issues inasmuch as it would plainly be a breach, both of the letter and of the spirit, of the Treaty of Rome for one Member of the Community aggressively to blockade the territory of another? Would it not therefore be better to clear this matter out of the way rather than to risk, as the Government's policy seems to risk, an embarrassing confrontation at the moment of formal application for membership?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I follow perfectly the noble Lord's arguments, and one could perhaps discuss this matter for ever. Nevertheless, the Government have chosen what they think to be the most productive path. Under the Treaty of Rome all 1040 democratic States in Europe should be within the Community, and we want Spain to be in it. Of course, once Spain became a member of the Community it would be absolutely unthinkable that it should continue to keep up this blockade. That is simply the position.
§ Lord BOYD-CARPENTERMy Lords, does not that answer given by the noble Baroness really accept the proposition that I was putting—that there is an inescapable link between these two matters—for, surely, what the noble Baroness has just said is that as from the moment of election to membership Spain would be bound to relax the restrictions?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, it is important for the House to realise that relations between democratic Spain and this country are very much better than they have ever been, and indeed Spain is getting closer to Gibraltar. We are quite sure that the best way of tackling this problem is to promote these closer relations. Of course, it goes without saying that we shall always respect the wishes of the Gibraltarians for their future, but we are working towards ever closer relations with Spain.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, is the noble Baroness not aware that the entry of Spain into the Community is only the prelude to Spain's entering NATO, and that that fact should be faced up to now? Is it not wrong for Spain to continue, not in words but in actions, in active hostility to an important community in the British Commonwealth of Nations for one day longer if in fact, at the back of their mind, the Government know perfectly well that it is first the Community and then NATO?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think to use the expression "active hostility" is really most unfortunate. Relations are getting better and we must not denigrate the situation; we must try to encourage it. The remainder of the noble Lord's remarks were rather outside the scope of this Question.
§ Lord O'HAGANMy Lords, can the noble Baroness tell the House what steps Her Majesty's Government have taken to ensure that the views of the people of 1041 Gibraltar are taken into account and listened to by our colleagues in the European Economic Community during the process leading up to enlargement, and what avenues they have for expressing their anxieties about that future to the rest of the Member States, apart from the normal channels of communication with this country?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am quite sure that the other Members of the Community are very much aware of our situation with Gibraltar. They know how we stand with the Gibraltarians, and how we think of them and their future. Nobody can be under any illusions about that. We must just hope that conditions will improve, as I am sure they will. Indeed, they already show signs of improvement. The Foreign Secretary has met with Senor Oreja, the Foreign Secretary of Spain, and, above all, the Spaniards have gone to Gibraltar, some of them for the first time. Things are moving—we are setting up working groups to discuss particular questions—and it is very important that the House should not let it go out to the world that we consider the situation to be still as it was formerly, because that is not so.
§ Lord O'HAGANMy Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that there are working groups in the Council of Ministers which are looking at the problems of Gibraltar, as well as other matters, in the context of enlarging the Community?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOENo, my Lords. The working groups are between representatives of Britain, Spain and Gibraltar.
§ Lord SIMON of GLAISDALEMy Lords, is not a blockade an act of war in international law, and will that be taken into account in any negotiations?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, everything will be taken into account. As I think the noble and learned Lord will know, some of the restrictions on telephones, for instance, have already been lifted. It will be a gradual process, but the Government are hopeful.
§ Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARDMy Lords, will the noble Baroness not agree that Spain is a proud nation and that to insist on the lifting of the blockade of Gibraltar as a prior condition to Spain's joining the EEC would almost smack of blackmail? Perhaps I am not using the right word there. However, is the noble Baroness aware that I quite agree with the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in this matter?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am astonished and delighted.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree that, seeing that Spain cannot possibly come into the Community for a good many years, the problem for the moment can hardly be described as very urgent.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, would not Her Majesty's Government agree that to make the whole question of Gibraltar a condition precedent on the Spanish application to the EEC is totally wrong, for the simple reason that it was not made a condition precedent to our application to join the EEC?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord. That is indeed so.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, the noble Baroness deplored my use of the word "hostility". The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, went a little further and described it as an "act of war". Would she care to make a distinction between the two?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think that would be unprofitable.
§ Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYEMy Lords, while the atmosphere is the improving one which the noble Baroness describes, will the Government consider asking the Spanish Government forthwith, as a gesture of goodwill, to remove the restrictions on air travel navigation into Gibraltar which cause a daily menace unnecessary for passenger and aircrew to endure?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, we are very much aware of the situation in the Spanish prohibited air zone and again I must stress that consultations are taking place all the time. This is one of the things we have very much in the forefront of our minds and we must hope for the best.
§ Lord LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend —and I do so as one who is rather dismayed at the diminishing number of red spots on the map of the world—whether she is aware of the fact that many of us, at least on this side of the House, are very well satisfied with the manner in which these negotiations are being conducted?