HL Deb 22 May 1978 vol 392 cc700-2

2.38 p.m.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will indicate their willingness to join the United States and the Soviet Union in discussions to restrain the sale of arms to the Third World countries in view of the agreement between the Governments of the United States and the Soviet Union to do so.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

Yes, my Lords, and with any other concerned Government. My noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts is today attending the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament. Her Majesty's Government, together with nine other Western countries, have tabled a draft programme which calls for a United Nations study into ways of limiting the worldwide build-up of conventional arms. A copy of the programme has been placed in the Library.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, in welcoming that Answer, and on this occasion not being surprised, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the cost of major weapons to Third World countries, excluding the Vietnam war, rose between 1956 and 1976 from 1,293 million dollars to 7,312 million dollars? Is that not a terrible cost for the poverty-stricken areas of Africa and Asia to bear?

Baroness LLEWELLYN-DAVIES of Hastoe

My Lords, without confirming my noble friend's figures, it is undoubtedly true that defence costs have risen very considerably in the Third World. This is one of the reasons why Her Majesty's Government are taking part in the United Nations Special Session on Disarmament. We bear it very much in mind.

Baroness GAITSKELL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness this: Is it not a great mistake to bracket the United States and the Soviet Union in this way? —when we consider that the Soviet Union only gives aid in the form of arms, whereas at least the United States gives both arms and development aid.

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, my noble friend speaks with great experience from sessions at the United Nations.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, is it not very significant indeed that it should be the unaligned nations which have initiated a Disarmament Conference?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I am so sorry; I am afraid I did not hear my noble friend.

Viscount ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, has the noble Baroness any figures she can give to the House as to who are the major providers of arms, so that we may know where most of the arms come from?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, the United Kingdom provides about 5 per cent. of the arms. The two major donors are the United States and the USSR.

Lord BROCKWAY

My Lords, without defending in the least the Soviet arms, is it not a fact that the Soviet Government have contributed greatly to development aid in Africa?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

I think that is true selectively, my Lords.

Baroness ELLES

My Lords, would the Minister be able to give figures of how much the Soviet Union has contributed to Africa in terms of aid, compared with what the United Kingdom, and particularly the European Community, has done?

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

Not without notice, my Lords; but if a Question is put down I will answer it.