Lord MORRISMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they have taken to ensure that the managements of airlines and the unions concerned at Heathrow are doing everything in their power to assist the police there in the performance of their duties.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, it is the responsibility of the management of all the airlines operating at Heathrow to assist the police in the performance of their duties. British Airways, who employ a high proportion of the staff concerned, have agreed on a code of practice with the unions, and in the last year there has been a substantial decrease in reports of baggage pilferage.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, despite feeling, as usual, totally disarmed by the graciousness of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman, and while feeling reluctant to dignify her totally inadequate reply with thanks, may I ask her to say what truth there is in reports that the shop stewards at Healthrow threatened the airlines to close the whole airport unless the police were prohibited from performing their duties at night time?
§ Baroness STEDMANI have no information that that assertion is correct, my Lords. The Metropolitan Police took over responsibility for policing at Heathrow in 1974, and they have taken very energetic action to deal with the problem. They have appointed a senior police officer with special responsibility for community and industrial relations in 1152 the airport division, and he is always willing to discuss with union representatives, including shop stewards, any problems which may arise. In addition, there is a Heathrow crime prevention committee, which is chaired by the police, with representatives of all the airlines who operate at Heathrow, and that is constantly reviewing and improving the measures taken. I am sorry the answer is rather long. Then, we also have British Airways, who act as the handling agents for many other airlines and they employ about three quarters of the baggage handlers, between 700 or 800 people, at the three terminals. They have negotiated a code of practice with the unions to ensure that action is taken to enforce the law without any victimisation of the innocent. About a year ago, when the merger of British Airways was completed, a new drive against pilfering was started and that has been successful in the last year.
Lord MORRISMy Lords, are there any union representatives or their leaders on the crime prevention panel?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, my information is that it is composed of representatives of the airlines and all those people involved in handling, which I assume would include the union representatives as well.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, may I ask the Minister to say whether it is still true that one-twohundredth of everything that passes through London Airport is stolen? If not, what figures are now current? Do the unions and employers co-operate when workers are convicted of stealing; are they always dismissed or are there cases where they are reinstated?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the British Airways security staff who are permanently stationed at the ramps have power to search packages, but they do not have power to search the person except on a voluntary basis. Whenever they have evidence which amounts to a prima facie case that an offence has been committed they then hand over to the police. Obviously they do not hand over on every immediate report of some discrepancy in baggage, because it may be that the item 1153 has just been mishandled at another airport and is on a later plane and is therefore not necessarily lost completely. The police are also free to initiate their own measures independently of the British Airways security staff.
In the last year the incidents of reports of pilferage as a proportion of all the baggage which arrives at, departs from or passes through Heathrow has been cut from 0.025 per cent. to 0.016 per cent., which, if my arithmetic is anything like right, is a cut of about one-third. The absolute number of reported thefts is high at Heathrow because it has a very great deal of traffic, but the proportion of thefts is not out of line with that at other major international airports. So Heathrow's reputation, which is beginning to be bandied around, as "thief-row" is largely undeserved. The thefts are still to be regretted, but are no greater than at some of the other major airports. So far as people who are handed over to the police are concerned, whose cases come before the courts and who are convicted, they are not always dismissed after conviction.
§ Lord DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is the Minister aware that she earlier used a phrase which it seems to me could give rise to much difficulty and may have given rise to difficulty in a recent case? I refer to the phrase, "Without victimisation of the innocent". Why on earth should the innocent be victimised? Could that rather ticklish phrase be reconsidered?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, many people work at Heathrow and it is very easy when there is an incident for the police or airport security staff to be accused of harassment, so I think it really means that they try to behave tactfully and diplomatically and do not necessarily go for everybody, so to speak, on the same day.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEMy Lords, I wonder whether I heard the noble Baroness aright? Did she say that convicted thieves were sometimes kept on in their jobs, where they have the opportunity to thieve?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, that was my information when I questioned it this morning, my Lords; they are not automatically dismissed from their posts.
§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIEIs that not madness, my Lords?
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, no doubt the noble Baroness, on being given that information, asked why. May we know what answer she was given?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords. My comment was that I had been associated with the fire service for many years, and if a fireman is convicted of looting he is given instant dismissal. That was the only comment I made on the matter.
§ Lord GLENKINGLASMy Lords, does the Minister realise that most of us who travel a great deal will be grateful that the level of thieving is going down? Does she also realise that it is particularly annoying that when the police apparently catch the culprits, the baggage handlers all come out on strike and make it impossible for people to travel at all?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I do not think that that is always true. My information is that since the whole security system was reorganised in 1974 there is a much better atmosphere at Heathrow. Indeed, both the police and the airport security chiefs have advised that their doors are always open and, if any of the union representatives want to go and talk over any problems, they can. I understand that there are usually no problems, even down to shop steward level. However, as in all big organisations, there are always one or two militants who might do a bit of stirring a little further down the line, and, like other organisations, British Airways is not immune from these.
§ Lord DAVIES of LEEKMy Lords, before my noble friend increases the brouhaha about Heathrow Airport, giving the impression that we are all a nation of villains, can she say—not in percentage terms—how Heathrow compares with similar airports in other parts of the world? I am tired of the continual denigration of the British people.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I said that the amount of pilfering at Heathrow had been reduced over the past 12 months. Having regard to the tremendous amount of baggage that passes through 1155 the three terminals, Heathrow is no better and no worse than any other major airport. We should all like the position to be better, but it does not deserve the reputation it is getting as "thief-row".
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the general impression of the latest strike was that the shop stewards at Heathrow regarded any interference with the perk of robbery as harassment? Is that not a very unfortunate frame of mind for them to have got into?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, the incident which provoked the recent dispute is sub judice at the moment, because the man was arrested and his case has yet to be heard.
Earl FERRERSMy Lords, will the noble Baroness be kind enough to find out in the interests of equity why, if a fireman is discovered to have pilfered he is dismissed instantly, whereas if a person at Heathrow is discovered to have pilfered he is not dismissed?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, I have already suggested to the officials that I should like to have that information.