§ Lord GORDON-WALKERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to make representations to the BBC about the recent "Law and Order series on BBC Television, and in particular about the attacks made therein on the reputation of the Police and the Prison Service.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has publicly expressed his concern about some features of these programmes, as the Minister with responsibilities for the Police and the Prison Services. At the same time he made it clear that he did not intend to depart from the long-established principle that responsibility for the content of programmes is a matter for the broadcasting authorities.
§ Lord GORDON-WALKERMy Lords, while agreeing that it is very important that the Government should not attempt to restrict the freedom of the BBC, is it not a corollary of that that the Government are perfectly entitled to criticise the Corporation sharply if, as in this case, it has made a bad and grave mistake? Can my noble friend say, or if not will he find out, whether the Director General himself knew of the content of these programmes before they went out and specifically approved them?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, as regards the second part of the question raised by my noble friend I shall have to make inquiries and I shall 672 draw the question to the attention of the chairman of the Governors of the BBC. As regards the first part of my noble friend's question, I think that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made his position clear in this matter. First, it is important that he, as Minister responsible for broadcasting policy, does not become involved, and that the Government themselves do not become involved, in detailed questions concerning the content of particular programmes broadcast by the BBC. Secondly, he has made clear his concern in this particular matter—which has to some extent been reflected by comment from the outside—that the content of some of the elements of these programmes were, to put it at its very least, unhelpful.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that we on this side of the House are equally concerned about this matter? Is he further aware that having seen two of the three programmes I formed the private opinion that they were both propagandist and subversive material masquerading as truth? Moreover, I sought the opinion of somebody who spent 38 years visiting prisons throughout the United Kingdom and abroad, who is not in any way an employee of the Prison Service or of any other, and, to quote his opinion: "It is a wicked distortion of the facts". Therefore, can the noble Lord assure us that steps will be taken to ensure that subversive progaganda does not shelter behind the cloak of the BBC's Charter?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, certainly I shall ensure that what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, and my noble friend Lord Gordon-Walker have said is drawn to the attention of the Governors of the BBC. There have been a number of protests about these programmes, both from the Police and from representatives of the Prison Service. I think that it would be right for me to say no more than that I recognise the force of the feeling which has been expressed and I shall make quite sure that the BBC is left in no doubt on this particular matter.
§ Lord WIGODERMy Lords, will the noble Lord consider advising the BBC that, when they put out a series of pro- 673 grammes which imply that all police officers, prison officers and lawyers are corrupt and sadistic brutes, the programmes should be preceded by a warning that they are not suitable for intelligent adults?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, again I am sure that the BBC will be interested to read these exchanges. However, I think that one must recognise the fundamental truth that the BBC has a difficult balance to strike between the need to permit free expression on issues of major public importance and the accompanying requirement that it should not undermine public confidence in the fundamental law and order services in this country. I am sure that the BBC recognises that, but certainly, as I have indicated already, I shall make known to it what noble Lords have said in all parts of the House this afternoon.
§ Lord ALLEN of ABBEYDALEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that some quite intelligent viewers, incredible though this may seem, have regarded these pieces of romantic imagination as being realistic? Will he tell the Governors that some people are beginning to wonder whether, when we have programmes of this kind, and then, within a few days another programme glorifying the train robbers who not only stole money but inflicted physical violence, there is a deliberate attempt to denigrate two very fine services of which this country should, in fact, be very proud?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, speaks for many people when expressing his anxieties on this particular matter. Having had responsibility for the Police Service and the Home Office for over four years, I would certainly not imagine for a moment that there was even the remotest relationship between what one saw on television and the magnificent job which the British Police Service does for all the people of this country. Indeed, the same remarks apply so far as the Prison Service is concerned. It is perfectly right that we should have free debate in this country on matters of national importance and adopt a liberal attitude on matters of this sort. Nevertheless, there is undoubtedly an accompanying 674 responsibility as regards the broadcasters, and I very much hope that that will be borne in mind in future.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will the noble Lord draw the attention of the Governors of the BBC to the fact that the IBA has set up an arrangement whereby it monitors recorded programmes before they are transmitted, and therefore, if there is thought to be a slant or an imbalance in the programmes, it can take action? Perhaps we ought to do something similar as regards the BBC in view of the many examples now where criminals are glorified and the police are victimised.
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, certainly I do not think that anybody would wish to minimise the importance of this issue, given the exchanges that we have had this afternoon. However, it is only fair to say that in the past there have been a number of complaints about Independent Television programmes, notwithstanding the procedures which the noble Lord indicated existed within the IBA. However, I think it would be helpful for the Governors of the BBC to have the opportunity of studying the exchanges that have taken place in your Lordships' House this afternoon, and shall ensure that that is done.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, although I sympathise with the prison officers who were treated unfairly in this programme, is it not the case that conditions in our prisons are very disturbing to all who know about them? Will the Government take steps to improve them?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, with great respect, I think that that question raises rather different issues. I quite accept what my noble friend Lord Brockway has said, that conditions in prison are far from satisfactory, which is putting it at its very least. Nevertheless, the allegations made in this programme were not about prison conditions; they were made against prison officers, which is a very different thing.
§ Lord ELTONMy Lords, further to the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, will the noble Lord bear in mind that it 675 was not only the general public or teenagers, who I know were widely affected, but also the relatives of those in prison, who will be subjected to quite unnecessary unhappiness about the conditions of those inside?
§ Lord HARRIS of GREENWICHMy Lords, I very much take the point that the noble Lord has made.