§ 3.27 p.m.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will comply with any judgment of the European Court in respect of their present refusal to insist on the installation of a tachograph in British transport vehicles.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, we have not yet received formal notification that the Commission has decided to lodge an application on this matter with the European Court. It would therefore be premature to speculate on the outcome of such an application.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, I suppose that I should thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Is it not a fact that under the Act of Accession we agreed to operate by a given date this very sensible resolution of, I think, the Council, which is designed to avoid abuses and preserve our roads and which, incidentally, is very popular in other Community countries and particularly appreciated by the unions?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, yes. It is the Government's wish to meet our Treaty obligations. However, as we have outlined in our response to the "Reasoned Opinion" by the Commission, there are fundamental difficulties here in the United Kingdom. A copy of the response is in the Library of the House.
§ Lord GEORGE-BROWNMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the only people who gain from the present policy being pursued in this country are some disreputable cowboy drivers and some exploiting employers? That is why historically the trade union concerned always supported, until recently, this installation. Will the noble Baroness represent to her colleague, the Minister, that there is no reason why we should await the judgment of the European Court, and that there is no reason at all 361 why the Government should be paralysed by the temporary weak leadership of that union?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, we have problems, not all of which are on the union side. The tachograph is strongly opposed by the trade unions who regard it as a threat to their freedom and have, indeed, dubbed it as the "spy in their cab". The employers do not object to the tachographs in principle, but there is some opposition from them about its compulsory use, which is what the current argument with the Commission is all about.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, I think I am right in saying that the noble Baroness will be aware that the Government knew about this requirement many years ago. Therefore, why are the Government not doing something to educate public opinion about the advantages of the tachograph, especially as it affects road safety?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, yes, we knew about it, and on accession to the European Community we accepted the obligation to implement the regulation which provides for the compulsory installation and use of the tachograph in certain goods vehicles. It should have been installed and it should have been used in vehicles carrying dangerous goods, and in all the newly registered large vehicles, from 1st January 1976; but, as I said, there is this opposition from the trade unions, there is not complete support from the employers, and we have arrived at a deadlock. The lorries which go into Europe are fitted with a tachograph, and there are no problems with the unions about using it there. It is a question as to whether we can have the tachograph, or whether they will use the tachograph, in this country.
§ Lord MOWBRAY and STOURTONMy Lords, the noble Baroness did not answer my question.
§ Lord BLYTONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I hope that the Government stand firm on this issue against the European Court? Once you put the "spy" in the cab you have a confrontation with the Transport and 362 General Workers' Union. No matter what is said by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, who is persona non grata with that union now, and whatever the Opposition says, there will be trouble if the Government do not stand firm on the issue.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, we are continuing, we hope, to do some education within the unions and with the employers. There is some voluntary use of the tachograph even now on lorries in this country, and we have no objections to —and indeed welcome —the voluntary use. But it is a matter for the unions and for the employers to discuss and to come to agreement about it as they wish. When we know what the decisions of the Court are then we shall have to take a decision on what action we shall take.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, is not the position that in a conflict between the Court and the unions the unions win?
§ Baroness STEDMANNo, my Lords, you are not to suppose that at all. But if there is a decision from the Court for the tachograph, then it will depend upon the terms that are attached to that whether we can implement it straight away or whether it means implementing it later, and it is a matter for discussion and negotiation all the time.
§ Lord LUCAS of CHILWORTHMy Lords, is not the truth of the matter that the compulsory use of tachographs in a domestic situation will seriously affect the earnings of drivers, and that there can be no agreement between TUC and employers on that score that is unlikely to breach the Government's Code in this matter? So is it not therefore the leadership of the Government that is required, not agreement between employer and union?
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, we have given the leadership in Government in that we have encouraged and ensured, so far as we can, that all the lorries which proceed over to Europe are equipped with a tachograph and carry out the laws of the land concerned. Our problem is here at home. This is where we have to continue our education, if you like, or our consultation or our negotiation. But at this point of time it is a matter between the employers and the trade unions.
§ Lord PANNELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the tachograph was first introduced in this country by Russian Oil Products, the State-owned oil firm? Is she aware that there were objections from British drivers then, and that the popular Press then said that Britons never shall be slaves? This is not a question of the British Government; it is a question of what trade union drivers will stand for in an individual way. The Conservative Party have always argued that it is a God given right to go on strike, and the way a cab driver goes on strike is by refusing to drive his cab.
§ Baroness STEDMANMy Lords, my knowledge of the history of the tachograph does not go back as far as my noble friend's, but it is certain that there is opposition at present from some of the drivers within the United Kingdom. That we have to break down, and we have to try and get the employers and the unions together to honour their obligations under the Treaty if and when it becomes possible to do so.